Training With PERCOM

[chbare]

After the past couple of years, I would have to say that you need to have an understanding of chemical principles and reactivity to truly appreciate the anatomy and physiology and even the core paramedic courses. Even a seemingly simple question such as "why do we need oxygen" is not apparent unless we have an understanding of the atomic structure and function. Then, concepts such as electronegativity and an electron acceptor will make sense. Otherwise, these become forgettable phrases said during an anatomy and physiology class.

Since I have gone back to college, the courses that have been truly beneficial to my understanding of, well, pretty much everything have been chemistry and physics. Perhaps this is why I enjoyed the first year so much, while everything is simply a drag currently. In any even, I have had to revise my idea of what whould be included as prerequisite course work. I understand many may disagree with my newer assumptions however.

Yet, I think it is a crime to not even have rudimentary comprehension of basic concepts such as the role oxygen plays in oxidative phosphorylation.

Take care,

chbare.

[tcripp]

So how goes your work with Jane? Any word on her getting the program accredited?

I'm very much enjoying my work with Jane. As to getting accreditation...Percom is still moving forward in that regard.

Tcripp and spenac both claim to have a personal relationship with the woman that runs the school and say that she is honorable. Spenac and I aren't exactly buddies, but I've nothing but respect for tcripps opinions to date and have no reason to dubt her, the problem is that there are honorable people turning out whackers every day.

Dwayne, thanks for the kind words regarding your respect. And, I do agree with your statement, there are those out there who are honorable who turn out whackers. While only words on paper (um, a computer screen), it is my intention to only turn out quality medics, at any level.

My two cents about a brick/mortar vs. on line vs. a shake-n-bake program (those would be the 10 week classes, IMHO).

I personally believe that each person learns by different methods and each person will have to determine which method works better for them. I, personally, do MUCH better with a butt-in-seat type of class. I simply fair better with that personal interaction during the lectures. However, when it came to skills building, I actually did much better in a vacuum - just me and the mannequin. There are others who will do better with an online so that they can work at their own pace. That is what I both like and respect about PERCOM. If you need to slow the pace so you can better understand the material, then you don't lose out on the education. You can't do that in a classroom setting - especially in that shake-n-bake class. You either get it...or you don't.

I am working at a service where we have various types of graduates. The ones who are still there are those who gave the effort needed regardless of the program. These are the same people who continue to learn and grow. Some came from the 10-week class, others are in the 15-week class, at least one took an online course and then there is me...19 months.

Ultimately, it's the person...not the program...that makes the medic.

All that aside, I firmly believe in accreditation and national standards. I want for us to be a single profession.

[HERBIE1]

Disclaimer-

I am not familiar with this course, the instructor, or anyone who is a product of the course in question. This is not a knock on this particular program or anyone who is a product of such a program.

Now, to piss some people off-

Personally, I do not think that accelerated courses are a good idea. I truly think that in the world of medicine, it takes time to not only absorb the information, but to truly process it and be able to properly apply it to the job.

You make connections and relationships with the material, diseases, and the patient, and these connections take time to truly understand and develop.

Yes, some folks can quickly learn all the skills and probably be a decent cook book medic, but I think there is far more to this job than simply regurgitating a protocol.

There is a reason why medical school training takes as long as it does. First and foremost- obviously there is a mountain of information you must absorb. Second, I think that within that time(student, intern, resident, attending), people mature, and are better able to reason and understand how this knowledge can and should be applied. Now- before anyone misunderstands me- I am in no way comparing medical school to a paramedic program, just in terms of the basics I outlined above. It's the same idea- just on a smaller scale. Anyone who deals with new medical students or even brand new residents can understand the difference maturity, confidence, context, and experience can make in a doc. You essentially undergo a transformation during your training- not just in terms of your knowledge, but as a person, and a provider.

I realize that a compressed program may be someone's only choice due to time, money, and personal constraints, so I will not judge a person based on where or how they got their training(unless I somehow know they come from a crappy program). I just feel that in something as important as patient care, the public needs to have the best trained, best qualified, and best prepared providers possible, and I feel a compressed format program is not the optimal method to learn this job.

Let the flames begin...

[DwayneEMTP]

Dwayne, thanks for the kind words regarding your respect.

No need to thank me. I'm guessing you know that I don't give them out unless you meet my self deluded bullshit standard for quality. Your posts, whether I agree or not, are always well considered and presented. I don't know anyone here that doesn't respect that.

I personally believe that each person learns by different methods and each person will have to determine which method works better for them. I, personally, do MUCH better with a butt-in-seat type of class. I simply fair better with that personal interaction during the lectures. However, when it came to skills building, I actually did much better in a vacuum - just me and the mannequin.

I agree to a point. I believe that if you were to become an accountant, then online is fine. A medical biller? Perhaps the same, though I know nothing of what they do, it just sounds like a logical, detail oriented job. Is there something that I think is so special about paramedic medicine that you should only be able to come up the way I did? Yeah, but I think it's the same thing that's special about carpentry, or plumbing, or auto mechanics, horse training. This job, for me, is sometimes as much about my eyes, ears, nose, and hands as it is my brain. (and thank God for that.)

You mention you did your best with just you and your mannequin. Where did you get a mannequin to practice on? Is one given out as part of the learning materials? I didn't see it on the equipment list. And I'm not talking one of those hundred dollar little things some teach cpr on, as that would be useless to a medic student, but the base level, several thousand dollar model that would still meet just the minimum needs. Right? Most aren't going to have them.

How long did it take you to get good at taking a rock solid blood pressure? Do you really believe that that is best learned, for the first time, under the pressure of clinicals? Did you REALLY learn to recognize pathologic breath sounds from the recordings we've all heard at one time or another online? Yeah, me...not so much.

How much of your AAS class was spent sweating your balls/boobs off in front of the class while you tried to remember in what order to apply the KEDS straps? Or being in charge of your team during scenarios and wanting to die because you couldn't remember what fucking condition makes you febrile, gives you a headache and makes it painful to touch your chin to your chest!! Damn it!!! But you did learn, and partially, at least I believe that most of us did, sometimes in a pressure cooker. I look back at that stress now and think how ridiculous that was...But it wasn't then and it helped to teach me to deal with medicine and stress together in the future. Right, or no?

How will that be recreated in the online environment? I was once surfing Mardi Gras boob pics and stumbled onto gay bondage porn. It was stressful, I will admit, but don't believe that it helped me in my EMS career. What do you do with miss introvert when it's time to step out into the real world? Or Mr 25 year old hero whacker that hasn't had to have his behavior judged until after he's completed his studies...hasn't had anyone to say, "You've gotten great grades, but you're behavior is going to make you the laughing stock of EMS." How will he be guided in that regard? It may seem like I'm splitting hairs but I truly, truly believe that these are all important things that happen when exposed to peer pressure over time...and I don't see that time in this program.

There are others who will do better with an online so that they can work at their own pace.

Again agreed, but again you're only addressing didactics. And EMS is only didactic in small parts. Before I develop a working diagnosis I've examined skins, pt anxiety level, sound/rate/depth of breathing, how they move their arms and legs, the way they form their words, the quality of their pulse, the condition of their house and car...etc, etc, etc. And all of those things take practice and I studied them throughout my entire paramedic education. I don't see how one can gain those tools in the few weeks they'll have available during scheduled clinicals. Having the knowledge without the skills is like having a computer without a monitor I believe.

That is what I both like and respect about PERCOM. If you need to slow the pace so you can better understand the material, then you don't lose out on the education. You can't do that in a classroom setting - especially in that shake-n-bake class. You either get it...or you don't.

And if there's a limit to how much you can slow it then I'm good with that. If you can go forever, then I'm not. Again, I believe that a certain level of stress needs to be built into EMS. So that we can handle the never ending tv like blood and guts we deal with on a daily basis? Heh...of course not. But so people can develop the tools for coping that so few seem to have today. We aren't tv heros, but we sometimes are put into some pretty shitty situations and expected to perform in a professional manner. We weren't born with that ability, it needs to be learned. And what about the granny call at the end of a 24? Don't you think that that is stressful? I do, over time.

Ultimately, it's the person...not the program...that makes the medic.

I'm not sure I completely agree. I would have been the worst hero bullshit whacker medic on the planet if I hadn't come to the City. Dust, ak, chbare, and many others here and gone convinced me that if I wanted to play in their sandbox, and I wanted to so badly that I could taste it, that I needed to be able to run with the big dogs. I followed their advice, and have never regretted it, though I'm still more qualified in the poodle or chihuahua category.

All that aside, I firmly believe in accreditation and national standards. I want for us to be a single profession.

I agree again, but for that to happen, we can't put all of that aside...

Thanks for your thoughts girl..

Dwayne

I don't know why tcripp, but I just saw your tag line and laughed so hard I about peed my pants. Even now, I have no idea what makes that so funny, but I'm powerless against it... :-)

Cool as hell..

Dwayne

[tcripp]

Okay - so I'm cluess as to how to do the multi-quote so I can respond appropriately. Sorry about that.

I'm also going to say that I'm not sure if some of what you are asking is pointed to me...or is rhetorical and in general. So, first things first. My experience with Percom was the instructor course, not the paramedic. My involvment at this point is grading papers, updating curriculum and sitting on scenario chat rooms. I'm still learning how the program in general works.

I attended a Community College to get my LP. For 5 semesters, I had my butt in a seat. In addition, I started as an ECA back in 2004 and then moved up to Basic in 2006. I started paramedic school in 2008 and worked as an Intermediate for a year before getting my red patch. Most of my learning has been the additional OTJ training. I'll bet I had been a first responder for nearly a year before I felt comfortable in doing blood pressures or even changing the regulator on an O2 tank.

And, now that I'm a working paramedic in the field...well, the learning never ends.

Now, to the point of my last post which I think got lost. If it were between a 10 week course and an online (which, by the way has hands on components - the student doesn't get away that easily), I would vote for on the online. Yes, there is a limit on how slow you can go. I just like that there is an option.

Now, as to my tag line. I'm glad that I can amuse you.

tlc

[DwayneEMTP]

....Now, to the point of my last post which I think got lost. If it were between a 10 week course and an online (which, by the way has hands on components - the student doesn't get away that easily), I would vote for on the online. Yes, there is a limit on how slow you can go. I just like that there is an option.

Yeah, sorry, I guess I didn't get your point... I think that I can agree with that point, though I've only known one person that went to a 10 week school and she entered with a bacchealors degree so I'm not sure that it counts.

As well, are you going to get some rock starts as well chuckleheads from each program. Sure, at least I'm confident you will, but we can't create our programs based on that fact (assuming that it is one), we need to create programs for the masses, right? And to do that requires focus and planning.

Now, as to my tag line. I'm glad that I can amuse you.

Heh...Me too

Have a great day!

Dwayne

[kthanid]

I'm not familiar with the head of this school or the school itself, but I think that there are some significant questions you need to consider before you choose this path....

Why would you choose to take an online course as opposed to getting a brick and mortar education? Is it that it's cheap? In my experience you often get what you pay for. More convenient? If you were to discover that it is a half asses school (which I'm certainly not claiming that it is) would you still choose to take it instead of making the necessary sacrifices to go to a community college? If the answer is yes then you've just become part of the EMS problem instead of part of the solution.

I went through the site pretty well, at least the paramedic portion, though I could have missed much, and though I can find pages of information concerning payments and refund explanations, which I think is honest and relevant, I couldn't find any information really concerning the education. They claim to have a higher than average first time pass rate for NREMTP, but you really should be able to teach a dancing monkey to pass the NR without a whole lot of trouble if that is your focus. What I didn't see were any prerequisites. I truly believe that college level anatomy and physiology are vital to becoming a skilled provider, and it doesn't appear that those are necessary here, nor could I find where it showed to be a significant part of the online education. Again, I didn't read every page and if I've missed it I have every confidence that spenac will point it out for me.

It's not clear what the clinicals consist of either. Who supervises them? Who will you spend your ride time and hospital time with? Will there be any hospital time? As I don't believe it is required by the DOT curriculum, though again I'm not sure. If the rest of your education is going to be spent alone, you really, really need to be sure that your clinical time will be high quality and focused.

There are significant questions here I think. You might even want to call around to your local agencies and see if they are willing to hire paramedics that have graduated from an online course. I would be terribly hesitant to do so.

EMS is a contact sport. It requires people that are able to touch patients, use their hands, confront others when necessary, lead groups, manage human and mechanical resources. Those things can not be learned in any significant way behind a computer. I believe that many mature adults will come to EMS education with a significant part of these particular skill sets, but those that are a bit younger...well, I just don't see them developing those skills in a vacuum. A huge part of AAS degree EMS education involves learning while doing. Thinking about doing is not even in the same universe as the actual doing.

Tcripp and spenac both claim to have a personal relationship with the woman that runs the school and say that she is honorable. Spenac and I aren't exactly buddies, but I've nothing but respect for tcripps opinions to date and have no reason to dubt her, the problem is that there are honorable people turning out whackers every day.

Unless you simply have a hardon for a patch that allows you to run lights and sirens in an ambulance I believe that a very close look is warranted here.

Dwayne

I have a hardon for more pay on oilrigs, and an online course with you yanks is the perfect solution

As to A&P the site says their A&P course needs to be passed before you can start the EMS itself.

An email reveals all the rest. I don;t have full details, another chap looking into it told me second hand but its 400hrs or so itemised into transport/hospital Obgyn, ER etc. with minimum successful intubations, IV's etc. Hands on training at two community colleges.

Regards online training my take is this.

If a lot of people end up dying or a lot of online paramedics starve to death without finding work , then natural selection will wipe these courses out.

As it stands this has not happened, they have increased ,so these courses are working at least 'okay'.

Either that or they must be controlling the media and hiding bodies their students create or something

You want to take the full extreme, try a commonwealth country(UK, Aus, NZ, canucks) where things are going to 3-4 year fully degreed Paramedics with higher protocols, no med control needed, tons of drugs available, same pay as RN's. And needing logbooks, references, interview boards just to get licenced etc

And having visited most these countries as safety officer I don't see what the big fuss is.

As I said no one is killing a great deal more people than any other, and people are getting jobs with whatever their required national training was.

Is this online Vs community classroom Vs bach degree student argument really that big a deal?

[PERCOM]

My name is Jerry Dinsmore and I am the CEO here at PERCOM. We generally do not post on forums or messages boards, but this topics begs for a statement from us. We feel that dialouge of this nature is good, but we would like to clear up some misconceptions and misinformation about our program.

DwayneEMTP, on 31 October 2010 - 02:10 PM, said: Why would you choose to take an online course as opposed to getting a brick and mortar education? Is it that it's cheap? In my experience you often get what you pay for. More convenient? If you were to discover that it is a half asses school (which I'm certainly not claiming that it is) would you still choose to take it instead of making the necessary sacrifices to go to a community college? If the answer is yes then you've just become part of the EMS problem instead of part of the solution.

The reason that any student chooses any program varies greatly. Most students that choose PERCOM choose us because of the flexibility of the program compared to college based courses. Some students are unable to attend traditional courses due to their work schedule or other issues that will not allow them to enroll in a rigidly scheduled course. You also should take into account students in the rural/frontier areas of TX whose nearest "Community College" offering EMS education is literally 200 miles away. These students would be unable to receive EMS education without a hybrid program such as ours. We also have many students who are soldiers that deployed overseas. Our program allows these students to complete the didactic portion of the program while in theater and then attend skills training and clinical rotations when they return to the US.

The course is not easy by any means. We have had physicians, PA's, RN's and former Paramedics take our courses. They have all commented that the educational process was one of the most challenging they had ever been through. We feel that in order for the learning process to occur in an online environment, the program must be extensive and thorough. We have weekly online student/teacher chat sessions to allow students to interact in real time with their instructors during the didactic portion of the course. The students are also encouraged to interact with the instructors via email with any question/issues they may have. Online education is not for every student. It takes a self motivated person to proceed through the material and learn in the virtual environment. However for those student who are motivated, it allows them to attend a program with more flexibility than traditional classes.

Cheap is a relative term. Our pricing is structured to pay the expenses involved in educating the student with a minimal profit margin for the company. I would not call $4000+ cheap, however I would describe it as reasonable.

I went through the site pretty well, at least the paramedic portion, though I could have missed much, and though I can find pages of information concerning payments and refund explanations, which I think is honest and relevant, I couldn't find any information really concerning the education. They claim to have a higher than average first time pass rate for NREMTP, but you really should be able to teach a dancing monkey to pass the NR without a whole lot of trouble if that is your focus. What I didn't see were any prerequisites. I truly believe that college level anatomy and physiology are vital to becoming a skilled provider, and it doesn't appear that those are necessary here, nor could I find where it showed to be a significant part of the online education. Again, I didn't read every page and if I've missed it I have every confidence that spenac will point it out for me.

Our website was designed to give an "Overview" of the program, not every detail of how we educate the student. This was done for 2 reasons.

1: We wanted to give enough information to the prospective student to peak their interest. We then want that prospective student to contact us so that we can discuss their unique situation (all students are different and unique). This allows us to help the student determine in our program is right for them. As I said earlier, online education is not for everyone and we want to ensure that student who enroll in PERCOM's programs understand fully how the program works and makes an informed decision before enrolling.

2: We did not want to let competing companies know how we do what we do. Business by nature is competitive and we are successful. We do not want the competition to know the in's and out's of our educational process and have them mimic it. We have had to deal with copyright infringement issues already and would rather not have to deal with issues of that nature again. Litigation, while successful on our part, takes away time from our main goal which is education.

Dancing Monkeys and NREMT. Interesting. I have sooooo much I could say. I guess my question to you would be: What benchmark would you like us to use? How can we compare our graduates to graduates of other programs? If you can suggest a truly level benchmark that I can use to compare our graduates to I would be more than happy to run the numbers and see where we compare.

We do have prerequisites listed on the website. We do not include A&P as one of them because we teach each student A&P before they are allowed to begin the Paramedic Curriculum. If a student can show proof of completing A&P at a college level then we waive that requirement.

It's not clear what the clinicals consist of either. Who supervises them? Who will you spend your ride time and hospital time with? Will there be any hospital time? As I don't believe it is required by the DOT curriculum, though again I'm not sure. If the rest of your education is going to be spent alone, you really, really need to be sure that your clinical time will be high quality and focused.

Clinicals are required in the course. We currently have 150+ clinical sites across the state of Texas. WE supervise the students in the clinical environment. We have minimum patient contacts and skills that must be preformed in the clinical environment. Hospital rotations include ER,OR,L&D,ICU,NICU and Cath Lab. EMS rotations include minimum calls that the student must be in the "Lead" role. All of these minimums must be met prior to graduation.

Agreed again, but I do believe that this is different. It seems that an online program is going to come with so many built in weaknesses in practice, training, hands on interaction, that it would be even more vital to increase the educational standards to compensate. I have a really bad feeling about a school that would choose not to. I would have much more confidence in the site as well if they didn't hit all of the wanker hot buttons. Study at home! Less expensive! Fewer practice and clinical hours and you can do them all at once!! Etc... See? Had I seen something that led me to believe that they were intent on mitigating the inherent online deficits I would maybe have been able to get on board based on you and tcripps recommendation. But the fact that she's a nice woman really doesn't make up for the fact that, at least from what's available on their website, they don't compensate for the online learning.

This is the quote that truly drove me to respond to this thread. DwayneEMTP can you please show me where our site makes any of these claims. Post the url's or screenshots of our site claiming "less expensive" "study at home" "Fewer practice ?and clinical hours". I don't feel we have done any of this and I feel your depiction here is quite unfair.

We take EMS education very seriously and our educators are top notch. Each of our lead instructors has been a Department Chair at a College EMS education program. We started this company to bring quality EMS education to student sans the rigidity of the college environment. After years of working in the College environment we saw so many students who were unable to meet their educational goals due to the intransigence of the College system. We felt that we would be able to offer quality EMS education in a more flexible way to allow more student to achieve these goals. We actually work cooperatively with college programs (Including Texas A&M) to add even more flexibility to the students choices. Our program goes through continuous review to ensure that our goals as educators are being met.

I welcome any comments, questions and constructive criticism you or anyone else may have.

[perpetual student]

Jerry and Jane Dinsmore are the owners/instructors of the program. Both are good people. I don't know the merit of their program.

Probably one of the better online paramedic programs is National Medical Education & Training Center (NMETC) based in MA, http://www.nmetc.com. They're accredited thru UTHSCA. The founder/director of the school is an excellent instructor who uses various eLearning tools that keep you engaged in the lecture...its not just ppt slides. I heard he's also good to work with and can help you find a clinical site to complete your skills portion of the program. I know this stuff because of a buddy who did the online EMT-B program. I have another friend whose overseas that's taking the online paramedic program with NMETC.

Worth checking it out atleast...

[DFIB]

I am going to resurrect this old post because I think that online education is a viable option for many people who wish to advance their career in EMS and other fields as well.

I am a EMT-B graduate from PERCOM and am currently studying with them to become a EMT-A. I passed my NREMT on the first try without ever "training to the test" and I hold a license to practice in my state of residence.

PERCOM has been and continues to be a viable option for me. The program holds the merit to be considered seriously by any EMS provider candidate who is seeking distance learning.