Ontario PCP's Have IV administration skills taken away

[rock_shoes]

So: Perhaps you can give us the "skinny" on just how many successful jurisprudence exam writers at the PCP and ACP Level from other provinces and under the AIT agreement in the last year ? Welcome to "globalization" in passing and please add in the USA REMT-P that have been given BC licensing.

______ numbers svp ?

I don’t know exact AIT numbers but I can tell you that there are 298 ACP license holders in BC total as of the end of the 2009/2010 period (based on numbers from the 2009/2010 EMA Licensing Annual Report which runs over the fiscal year). There are a total of 2834 PCP licences as of the end of the same period (the list does not differentiate IV endorsed from non IV endorsed). The Infant Transport Team has a whopping 27 practitioners (specialized paediatric and high risk maternity ALS providers).

The resultant fall out of reducing scope of practice in Ontario.

Just what is your opinion about this situation ? Do you think that the rather impressive and well educated PCP from ONT (but now rather dismayed and many unemployed or semi employed) will not seek "greener pastures" in an area where they are allowed to practice to their full scope, say for example BC ? I wonder how many grads are pumped out of ONT programs ...Oh yes dont forget and Holland College too.

Nice try Squint. I know you’re well aware of how far from green our pastures are for PCP providers in BC. To me being a paramedic isn’t about the number of tools in the box. It’s about how well that wet squishy thing between the ears works. Regardless of SOP Ontario PCP’s do have a better educational background than the majority of Canadian PCPs. That educational background will have a positive effect on the quality of a provider’s thought processes no matter what their allowed SOP is.

Now with recent events in BC and those looking for viable alternatives in education (NOT TIED to Union actions) how many BC PCP have gone to "fast track" their education to ACP across the "pine beetle defended" AB/BC border ?

____ numbers svp?

I do know that roughly a quarter of my class (42 students) at SAIT this fall will be made up of PCPs from BC. That’s only one school in Alberta out of 6 that are CMA accredited (though Augustana is due to close soon if I remember correctly). At this rate Alberta schools will be producing more ACPs from BC stock than the Justice Institute in BC (the only current provider of ACP education in BC). The JI did recently announce that they intend to run the first cohort of students through the “new” revised program this fall (20 students in total).

I wouldn’t call the last 2.5 years I’ve spent working in BC the “fast-track.” It’s more like the “if you survive this you better make a good provider” track. I’m not saying everything as it’s currently done in BC is bad. Parts of it are excellent. I do fully support the concept behind current mentorship programs (its effect on experienced providers coming into BC notwithstanding as I see it as a separate issue).

Do dare open my yap in the BC super unionized environment to say that CUPE 873 president John Strohmeier has failed you miserably to the point of an EPIC FAIL ? Point being having field practicums and educational institutes and union married together is folly for any forward progressive development for Ambulance Service in BC. No, I guess I will not I would not like to be reprimanded from someone actually living and paying HST in BC, thats just living the dream I guess ?

I’m going to keep my trap shut on this side of things for the time being.

That said: I sat with a Peter an ACP (Flight) out of PG at the Edmonton ESSO FBO (just yesterday) to find a completely different attitude, very positive, open and very professional. In fact attempting to recruit experienced flight side personnel as I was informed the whiny YVR types did not wish to relocate to PG and there has been openings for the last year ... hmmm interesting.

With regard to ALS services, PG is chronically short-staffed. That said I don’t have much desire to move to PG myself. Smithers on the other hand would be just great.

This CTV story is a bit misleading. At least for the time being, many Ontario PCPs (outside of Ottawa) are still doing IVs.

Thank you for the update. This should all prove rather interesting.

[tniuqs]

I don’t know exact AIT numbers but I can tell you that there are 298 ACP license holders in BC total as of the end of the 2009/2010 period (based on numbers from the 2009/2010 EMA Licensing Annual Report which runs over the fiscal year). There are a total of 2834 PCP licences as of the end of the same period (the list does not differentiate IV endorsed from non IV endorsed). The Infant Transport Team has a whopping 27 practitioners (specialized paediatric and high risk maternity ALS providers).

Nice try Squint. I know you’re well aware of how far from green our pastures are for PCP providers in BC. To me being a paramedic isn’t about the number of tools in the box. It’s about how well that wet squishy thing between the ears works. Regardless of SOP Ontario PCP’s do have a better educational background than the majority of Canadian PCPs. That educational background will have a positive effect on the quality of a provider’s thought processes no matter what their allowed SOP is.

I do know that roughly a quarter of my class (42 students) at SAIT this fall will be made up of PCPs from BC. That’s only one school in Alberta out of 6 that are CMA accredited (though Augustana is due to close soon if I remember correctly). At this rate Alberta schools will be producing more ACPs from BC stock than the Justice Institute in BC (the only current provider of ACP education in BC). The JI did recently announce that they intend to run the first cohort of students through the “new” revised program this fall (20 students in total).

I wouldn’t call the last 2.5 years I’ve spent working in BC the “fast-track.” It’s more like the “if you survive this you better make a good provider” track. I’m not saying everything as it’s currently done in BC is bad. Parts of it are excellent. I do fully support the concept behind current mentorship programs (its effect on experienced providers coming into BC notwithstanding as I see it as a separate issue).

I’m going to keep my trap shut on this side of things for the time being.

With regard to ALS services, PG is chronically short-staffed. That said I don’t have much desire to move to PG myself. Smithers on the other hand would be just great.

In regards to BEorP comments is this CTV story just based out of our Nations Capital where there is ALS ? PNN did not provide a link to the CTV story ... it just got my goat I guess.

[BEorP]

I haven't heard any further updates, but initially the "word on the street" was that Ottawa PCPs could not do IVs because they did not complete a Medical Advisory Committee (the committee of the big base hospital docs in Ontario) approved course. They certainly cannot be the only PCPs in Ontario who were doing IVs after having completed a course that was not "MAC approved" but it doesn't seem like anyone else has lost the skill yet. I'm surprised that this didn't get bigger than it did...

[rock_shoes]

I haven't heard any further updates, but initially the "word on the street" was that Ottawa PCPs could not do IVs because they did not complete a Medical Advisory Committee (the committee of the big base hospital docs in Ontario) approved course. They certainly cannot be the only PCPs in Ontario who were doing IVs after having completed a course that was not "MAC approved" but it doesn't seem like anyone else has lost the skill yet. I'm surprised that this didn't get bigger than it did...

So coming from a CMA accredited 2 year program isn’t sufficient for the MAC in Ottawa? What do these guys think the acceptable standard is? Good enough for the Canadian Medical Association but not good enough for the Medical Advisory Committee? My crystal ball shows me a cranial-rectal inversion somewhere in the MAC. Proctologist STAT! I know that standards of practice in BC are due for expansion and review but this kind of garbage does make me thankful we have a provincial standard without the local fiefdoms.

In regards to BEorP comments is this CTV story just based out of our Nations Capital where there is ALS ? PNN did not provide a link to the CTV story ... it just got my goat I guess.

If I remember correctly Ottawa tries to have at least one ACP on every car.

[OwleyMedic]

While Ont is moving backwards it is nice to see progress from Nova Scotia.

Office of the Nova Scotia Provinical Medical Director The Primary Care Paramedic Scope Advancement Project Initiation Document (PID) regarding PCP IV therapy has been approved and signed. There are approximately 450 paramedics that will be required to take the training.

See NS updates on their Facebook site:

'Office of the Nova Scotia Provinical Medical Director"

[rock_shoes]

While Ont is moving backwards it is nice to see progress from Nova Scotia.

Office of the Nova Scotia Provinical Medical Director The Primary Care Paramedic Scope Advancement Project Initiation Document (PID) regarding PCP IV therapy has been approved and signed. There are approximately 450 paramedics that will be required to take the training.

See NS updates on their Facebook site:

'Office of the Nova Scotia Provinical Medical Director"

I’m assuming you’re speaking with regard to Nova Scotia PCPs being used to provide home IV therapy (antibiotic, etc.)? Do you know what type of training is being done to provide this added level of service?

[tniuqs]

Try this site ....

http://emergency.medicine.dal.ca/ehsprotocols/protocols/ParamedicEBPCourse.cfm

or contact

http://www.gov.ns.ca/health/ehs/faq/

or try Troy (of all things east coast)

http://legalizelifesaving.ca/LegalizeLifesaving/Intro.html

Or maybe PM OwleyMedic.

[Kiwiology]

Primary Care Paramedics probably understand fluid homeostasis and venous anatomy just as good as me, renintastic n all that.

I say they are more than qualified to slip in a drip, if 200 hour wonder Intermediate EMTs can cannulate and infuse surely somebody with two years of education should be able to do so as well

Good lord if I can shove in a bloody cannula and not f it up what does that tell you? ....

Edited August 20, 2010 by kiwimedic

[OwleyMedic]

I’m assuming you’re speaking with regard to Nova Scotia PCPs being used to provide home IV therapy (antibiotic, etc.)? Do you know what type of training is being done to provide this added level of service?

Rock;

I was actually referring to a recent decision by the Provincial medical director to allow PCP to start IV's. As for PCP's being allowed to provide home IV therapy. I am not familiar with this. I used to work in NS, (Moved out two years ago) so if something has changed i am not aware of it. It may have, they do have an 'expanded' role scope PCP, what they call "community Paramedic Program". Maybe it has something to do with that. Again i do not know what the training would be.

Check out the links tniuqs suggested, there might be something there. Also check the facebook site( if you have facebook) I put in the earlier post. You can post questions on that site.

[rock_shoes]

Rock;

I was actually referring to a recent decision by the Provincial medical director to allow PCP to start IV's. As for PCP's being allowed to provide home IV therapy. I am not familiar with this. I used to work in NS, (Moved out two years ago) so if something has changed i am not aware of it. It may have, they do have an 'expanded' role scope PCP, what they call "community Paramedic Program". Maybe it has something to do with that. Again i do not know what the training would be.

Here is the article I was thinking of.

Community Paramedicine: A Part of an Integrated Health Care System