Martyrs in Afghanistan

[akflightmedic]

I am sure this story will generate some interesting responses and this is more of a rant for me than anything else

http://www.wesh.com/r/24547543/detail.html

A medical team was killed in Afghanistan today. They were non profit, good heart people. I knew Dr. Woo and she did some very good work, especially with the women of Afghan and getting them competent medical care.

However, at what point do we start to think we are invincible? Is it because we are medical and being charitable or because in this case, we have "God" on our side..which spins me up even more, as if he picks and chooses.

Anyways, aside from giving care to remote areas, they preached. You can not preach in these people's back yards. What gives you the right to come to their country and then try to sway them from their beliefs? This is what pisses me off the most about faith based charities as their services come with a price.

Those who are religious of course will say they were doing their "calling" and it was time for them to go home to their maker. Hell of a way to exit the planet for doing such good deeds on his behalf, but I digress.

In the end, we all have martyrs and we all have fanatics...yet this will be more justified than the "other people's methods.

[HERBIE1]

AK-

I agree with your comments about missionary work. Like you noted, they were also providing care, not just trying to convert the "heathens", but in the end, it's still preaching- albeit with the bonus of medical care. I don't know if the people simply tolerate the "God lectures" because they are getting badly needed help, but clearly the folks in charge- the Taliban- are not happy.

I liken it to faith based homeless shelters. Many offer food, shelter, and clothing- for a price. They must sit through a lecture/mass/sermon, telling them how the answer to their situation is god. That's fine since the folks who use these shelters know what they are getting into, but many homeless opt not to use these shelters to avoid the religion lectures.

These medical folks were killed by the Taliban because they were "spying for the Americans" and "preaching Christianity."

Relating this back to the issue of the mosque at ground zero-

This is how the fundamental Muslims feel about us and our religion. They KILL people who do not agree with them, yet we are supposed to be tolerant of such a group- ON OUR SOIL, and in the shadow of a tragedy perpetrated by their comrades, in the name of their religious/political beliefs. Sorry, but anyone who defends this mosque is missing the big picture here.

I don't begrudge people who feel strongly about their religion and feel the need to "convert" someone to the "right" god. I may completely disagree with the notion of missionary work- as you said, what right do we have imposing our values/religion/doctrine on someone else? Who is to say that "our" way is the "right" way for everyone. That's pretty arrogant, if you ask me. Again, if you feel so strongly about your religious convictions, good for you, but in this case, things turned out badly. It wasn't a case of mistaken identity- the Taliban clearly knew who these folks were and what they were doing. They would rather have folks do without medical care than be exposed to the "wrong" religion and ideals.

This is who we are dealing with, this is our enemy, and we would do well to understand what happened to these people. I take my hat off to them and the work they do, but I question the wisdom of injecting religion into their work.

[Patch]

I hate god as much as you guys do but the big picture is that most HUMANS are decent people who make reasonable decisions and actions. And the fact that the Muslim faith has been in North America from the start of things here doesn't matter, right? I was initially appalled at the suggestion of a mosque at Ground Zero. But this is more of what we need. In North America this coming together to beat the fear thrust upon us 24/7 is possible. The PEOPLE need to be held responsible not the religion, cultural fashion, practices. You are guilty of the same intolerance as "them". If all the Imams are spreading hate then they need to be responsible for their actions, not the whole group of people who identify with a faith. Get your heads out of your ass. This whole mess is only about one thing. Money. Which is control. And that is what all the major religions and governments care about. Both "sides". See you in hell. I'll buy you a beer and pork chop.

[chbare]

I have come across a few of these people and they were friend of some of the people I worked with while in Afghanistan.

Regardless of your views on God, preaching and so on, do people really deserve to die such a miserable death? Clearly, it's somewhat buyer beware in Afghanistan as nearly everybody should have some idea of what they could face if they go to Afghanistan.

Edit:

Patch, what is your definition of a "good person?" in my experience, I would have to disagree somewhat. I dare say most people sit on the fence with their wet finger in the air and go wherever the wind blows. This is especially true in Afghanistan IMHO.

It's also a bit more complicated than money. While the leadership element may be looking at the money and potential power, there is a large segment of Afghanistan that truly believes in their religion regardless of factors such as money. Many truly believe and are more than happy to die in the process. This is in stark contrast to many Americans who may believe in religion but would not line up and happily die for the cause. You must understand the importance of "life" is very different in other areas of the world.

Take care,

chbare.

Edited August 7, 2010 by chbare

[tniuqs]

<snip demi-rant>

AK ... I do hear what your saying and brother I do understand your torment.

Whenever one culture attempts to influence another especially in the area of religion it is a recipe for this type of tragic action. When will mankind learn is way beyond me. Violence against each other has been going on since the dawn of time. I truly believe this that organised religion or cultural doctrine IS the root of all EVIL, co-exsistance is proven over and over is quite IMPOSSIBLE. Especially when one doctrine "suggests" or is "interpreted" to suggest that one path vs another path is more "correct" .

As every father knows when there is a dispute amonst the children one has 2 option (s)

1- Might makes Right.

2- Separate.

That said: As you AK, and your personal attempts at winning hearts and souls and Kudos my brother. I still have a singular iota of hope that things will be somehow better before I die. (thats the Hope for Humanity the little voice in my head) If we all could can drop Blind Faith as the rationale for what we do, most curiously enough mans belief in one deity over another deity is something that can never be proven or dis-proven, but we will die for it ? Maybe this is the way is was destined to be ?

I believe we are doomed to stay in the circle of death. (thats the realistic voice(s) in my head.)

I was asked once by a common close friend:

Would you provide medical lifesaving care to your proven enemy knowing full well that they would never have mercy on your soul ? My "ideological view" and answer to that question has since changed. I so so so miss her council, the tears of "not knowing what became" are ......

Patch: I believe you are very confused and a very torn individual (not to be perceived as adversarial please) many humans world wide are so indoctrinated from the time they understand the spoken word they do not have the capacity to change as they have never been exposed to this idea of change. I would hazard a stab in the dark that you sir have NEVER been shot at by a child soldier that is absolutely convinced that you are the devil himself, if you don't take cover or return fire you will be dead. Fact: bullets do not curveand these children have an AK 47 from age 10.

These issue's here have absolutely nothing to do with money in the slightest, perhaps ENVY is what you mean ?

This ideological dream that everyone will be peaceful and get along solving problems through dialog is just for Hollywood movie scripts and philosophers when the fact's facing us that will never become utopia world look around. Do you believe that in a blink of an eye mans intrinsic and proven in spades violent mans behavior will ever change ?

You wish to have the entire world to conform to your way of thinking ? I wish good luck with that but it may just make you insane on that journey.

You must understand the importance of "life" is very different in other areas of the world.

As always chbare most excellent insightful commentary, one can not comprehend this simple statement until you live it, many times I wasted my breath trying to explain this to no avail and absolute utter frustration.

cheers

Edited August 7, 2010 by tniuqs

[spenac]

And for the conspiracy theory folks. Would it be possible that they were killed by friendlies to stir up political support for an unpopular war?

[CBEMT]

And for the conspiracy theory folks. Would it be possible that they were killed by friendlies to stir up political support for an unpopular war?

Pretty sure the survivor would have noticed the difference.

[spenac]

Pretty sure the survivor would have noticed the difference.

Maybe they are in on it as well?

[Eydawn]

Patch- interesting comments.

Do you really think people develop tendencies towards killing all on their own without influence from their religion, social custom and sociological surroundings?

I'm not saying that all moslems (or Christians, or Jews, or Rastafarians;-) propagate murderous intent. The issue here is that culturally speaking, these Islamic terrorists in Afghanistan are not only not willing to embrace your viewpoint of "put it all aside and look at humans as humans" but will capitalize on the ignorance of anybody who thinks they'll give it a shot. They look at people like that and go "oh look! Easy target."

An individual, placed on their own, will show very different behaviors and tolerances than an individual surrounded by their normal cultural group. Group-think is a very dangerous thing, and if you take into account the "save face" "personal image/male honor" stuff in Islamic culture (kind of similar to culture in Japan in ways if you think about it, where dishonor is the height of personal problems) you will find that most people will go along with the consensus of "kill the stupid infidel Westerners" rather than taking a stand in their own space against intolerance.

In order for that gap to be bridged, both sides must be willing to concede. Guarantee you that it will take hundreds of years for a religious-run Islamic group to concede without some sort of drastic occurrence. You have to understand some of the psychology of Islam... really, God has nothing to do with this particular war, as I don't think God is the focus of MOST organized religions. They wouldn't be so f*cked up if God was the central issue... just my personal thoughts.

As far as "I hate god as much as the rest of you"... not all of us here on the City are atheist or agnostic. Try not to generalize too much there.

I would agree that money/power are central to almost any conflict, but I don't necessarily think that money always = power. They do often coincide, but sometimes they do not. What financial advantage to guerrilla warfare in Afghanistan do you see happening for the Afghani terrorist side? I sure as hell don't see a financial advantage there...

As far as the issue of those who choose to be missionaries while providing care, I say more power to them. Who has the right to say they should or should not present their viewpoint? I may not agree with what they're presenting, but I surely agree with their right to present it. They knew the risks of venturing into this territory with the message they chose to deliver. Looks like they found the consequences, more's the pity as we need all the medical personnel out there we can get.

Wendy

CO EMT-B

[armymedic571]

As far as the issue of those who choose to be missionaries while providing care, I say more power to them. Who has the right to say they should or should not present their viewpoint? I may not agree with what they're presenting, but I surely agree with their right to present it. They knew the risks of venturing into this territory with the message they chose to deliver. Looks like they found the consequences, more's the pity as we need all the medical personnel out there we can get.

Wendy

CO EMT-B

Amen to that........