COuncilman wants EMS to respond before police in violent incidents

[emtannie]

This was one of the lead news clips on EMS World today... and after reading it, I gave serious thought to cheering on any crew that would take this councilman and tie him to the front of their ambulance for a shift...

After reading this, you may want to visit the wapt.com website, and add your comment to the article...

http://www.emsworld.com/article/article.jsp?id=15168&siteSection=1

Original storyline wapt.com

Battle Over EMS Response to Crime Scenes in Miss.

Story by wapt.com

JACKSON, Miss. --

There's a debate raging in Jackson about the role paramedics and emergency responders play in responding to a crime scene.

City Councilman Kenneth Stokes has threatened to reverse the contract American Medical Response has to serve in the area if the company doesn't send its workers into violent crime scenes, even before police arrive.

On any given night, police will respond to a crime scene and an AMR ambulance will be found nearby -- waiting for an all-clear to respond and provide medical attention. It is a practice and a policy that has irked some city of Jackson leaders who now argue that AMR shouldn't wait for anything.

Ken Walters is an AMR paramedic who said he's seen enough dangerous situations, just waiting to go into them in Jackson. He provided 16 WAPT News with an example.

Ward 3 City Councilman Kenneth Stokes

"We're just standing there. Two guys came up and robbed us at gunpoint and shot at us. One of the bullets hit right here," Walters said.

"Isn't there implied risk as an EMT that you are supposed to assume some forms of risk?" WAPT's Scott Simmons asked Walters.

"Yes, but not where your life is in danger, because we are there to provide aid, comfort and aid, and take someone to the hospital. You know, this isn't the military," Walters said.

Stokes has been the loudest critic. He said if AMR is going to take taxpayer money to provide service, that service should not come with restraints.

"If you are concerned about safety, put on a bullet proof vest," Stokes said. "I think the contract is what we're going to get because you can't sit up here in the capital city of Jackson, Miss. and say, 'We're going to let people die.'"

Stokes may have a problem with AMR, but there is little city leaders can do about its contract for service in this area. That is something the city of Jackson gave up to Hinds County in 1990.

AMR spokesman Jim Pollard defended the company's policy.

"We have letters from two national organizations," Pollard said.

Nowhere does it say that paramedics are supposed to go into crime scenes before police do, Pollard said.

"In the national standard material, it says very simply, regarding violent scenes, scenes should always been secured by law enforcement before EMTs provide patient care," Pollard said.

"We're there as part of the solution," Walters said. "We go in there and we get hurt, we get injured, then we become part of the problem."

Stokes said the argument is not over.

"I think we have got a fight. That is just round one of a heavyweight bout," Stokes said.

Walters and others at AMR are hoping they can continue the policy of letting police go into a violent crime scene before they do.

[JPINFV]

[tongue in cheek]

I fully support Councilman Stokes view point and I would like to wish Councilman Stokes the best of luck finding an ambulance company who is willing to send crews into violent scenes sans police. Pending finding a new company who is willing to meet that demand (dont hold your breath), I believe that the response policy should be changed to stage until either Councilman Stokes OR the police arrive.

[removes tongue from cheek]

[tongue in cheek]

I fully support Councilman Stokes view point and I would like to wish Councilman Stokes the best of luck finding an ambulance company who is willing to send crews into violent scenes sans police. Pending finding a new company who is willing to meet that demand (dont hold your breath), I believe that the response policy should be changed to stage until either Councilman Stokes OR the police arrive.

[removes tongue from cheek]

[ERDoc]

For anyone that might be interested, the good counsilman can be reached at (601)960-1090 or by email at kstokes@city.jackson.ms.us

[DwayneEMTP]

My posted comment on the newspaper website...

"I think the foolishness for EMS personnel in this scenario is obvious, but I can't believe that law enforcement is any too happy about it either.

Their jobs are dangerous enough in these situations when they have to care only for their own. How much more dangerous does their job become when they must now not only protect, but work around, untrained responders in the middle of their scene?

I do believe that there will be untold numbers of wanna be whacker heros that will be willing to do such an idiot thing, but I won't be amongst them.

I have never had law enforcement ask me to compromise my safety or give half assed patient care while they've been on my medical scene. I will not ask them to compromise their safety, and/or ability to do their job while I am on theirs.

Given this mandate, I would walk.

Dwayne "

[HERBIE1]

I think someone needs to explain to this asshat councilman that the first thing that is drilled into the head of any potential EMS provider- from the very beginning of their training- is SCENE SAFETY. Before ABC's before any treatment is established- the scene must be safe. Even today, when we go through drills and training scenarios, the first thing we recite is always SCENE SAFETY.

We are there to mitigate the medical problem. PERIOD. Unless they change the DOT curriculum and provide law enforcement training and protection for EMS workers, this is an epic fail.

There are plenty of times when we may be thrust into a dangerous situation- one we could not foresee based on the nature of the dispatch information we have- but if we know that a scene is unsafe- ie shooter/offender is still on the scene, that means there are 2 distinctly different issues playing out- one of a law enforcement nature, and one of a medical issue. We only have the training to deal with one of those situations.

The reality is, that unless you happen to be a block away from an incident when you receive the call, the bad guys are usually long gone by the time we get there- they do NOT want to be caught. Unless we were told enroute to a call that the offender is- or may be- still on the scene, or that the police have specifically requested we wait until the scene is secure, as a matter of routine procedure, I have never waited for confirmation that it's OK to proceed. Yes, exceptions would be when we knew an area is hot-alot of gang warfare going on, previous hostile situations at that location, etc, but here's the rub.

You should know your area. You should understand the dynamics at work- what is going on, and when it's prudent to take extra precautions. Talk to other crews. Talk to police and ask them where the recent hot spots are- they will certainly know. In many urban areas, violence is part of the equation and unfortunately a risk providers must sometimes face. In all the years of working in the ghetto, 95% of the dangerous situations I have dealt with were NOT ones where you would think there is an obvious risk. A cardiac call and you happen to walk into the crossfire of an unrelated gang fight. A stroke where a family member comes home and attacks us as we are working a code on his grandma. Standing on the street with a woman complaining of menstrual cramps and shots from a nearby building zip past us. Things happen. We work in the streets, not in a controlled environment like an ER or office cubicle. That is the nature of our business. We take reasonable precautions, but the only way to completely eliminate those risks is to change professions or choose to work in a quiet, sleepy town where crime and violence is not an everyday occurrence.

Now those who work in a rural area have their own risks- maybe a meth lab, a crazy shot gun toting land owner who does not like strangers on their property, etc, but clearly their issues are not ones faced in a busy urban environment.

For years we had an ongoing discussion about wearing body armor. I purchased a vest, and wore it occasionally, when gang violence was escalating for some reason. It was not provided by the department, and we were told that if it was, then we would have to wear it all day, every day, or risk not being covered for an injury because we did not use the protection provided for us. Some felt that wearing the vest meant we were blurring the lines between law enforcement and EMS. If we walk up on a scene wearing Kevlar, the bad guys could easily mistake you as being a cop. Gawd knows many of them aren't literate enough to read the EMS vs Police identification- all they see is a vest.

Bottom line for me- training and experience is key. You mentor new folks, make them understand that the medical procedures are only part of the equation. You need to be aware of your surroundings and the potential hazards we may face in a given area. You take reasonable precautions, but again- if you want a 100% guarantee for your safety, then prehospital care is the wrong business for you.

[Richard B the EMT]

I have sent to that supplied E-Mail address, the following, with my full name and address redacted here:

Dear Councilman Stokes: I read, online at the EMT City.com web site, about your disagreement with the AMR Ambulance Service Providers in your area. In potentially violent situations, if I understand the gist of your statements, the crews should simply don "soft body armor", and respond in. As someone who has been working ambulances in the volunteer, proprietary, and municipal areas for 38 years, 25 years with the Fire Department of New York City Emergency Medical Service Command (recently retired), I find such attitude to truly be shocking. One of the first things taught to EMTs and Paramedics is what is called "Scene Safety". On arrival at a scene, the crews will do a quick "10 Second Scene Safety Survey", which includes looking for downed wires, obviously unstable things like trees and telephone poles overhanging car wrecks, flaming buildings, and people, other than Law Enforcement Officers or the Military, brandishing firearms or knives. Those in EMS are not usually trained in hand to hand combat by their employers, as is the case with the LEOs. Also, if needed, LEOs are carrying firearms of their own, to shoot back if necessary. EMS crews are trained in helping the sick and injured, not in causing some of the injuries they might treat. If an Emergency Medical Technician or Paramedic gets hurt or killed at a violent scene, or on any assignment, they are not available to respond to help anyone else. In addition, a second crew will be needed to respond to the injured first crew, and a third to the original incident. While the second ambulance is leap-frogging over the area covered by the first crew, and the third over both the previous crews, who is going to cover the areas they left while helping at the first crew's scene? I admit that there are specialty trained "Tactical EMS" teams, who respond in to scenes with the SWAT or Hostage Negotiating Teams, or cross trained LEOs who serve in EMS capacity when in the special response. However, as with the US Military, most times, the "medic" is unarmed, and is protected by the armed LEOs (or the Army or Marine unit they are with). The Tactical EMS crews train regularly with the LEOs, which most "line unit" EMS crews do not do. Before you just tell an EMS crew to don the armor, I would suggest you ride a few tours in ambulances that cover areas in Jackson, or any large metropolitan area, known to be prone to violence on Saturday nights. I think that doing so might open your eyes. Respectfully, Richard B, New York State Emergency Medical Technician, FDNY EMS Command (Retired).

Edited October 30, 2010 by Richard B the EMT

[HERBIE1]

I have sent to that supplied E-Mail address, the following, with my full name and address redacted here:

Dear Councilman Stokes: I read, online at the EMT City.com web site, about your disagreement with the AMR Ambulance Service Providers in your area. In potentially violent situations, if I understand the gist of your statements, the crews should simply don "soft body armor", and respond in. As someone who has been working ambulances in the volunteer, proprietary, and municipal areas for 38 years, 25 years with the Fire Department of New York City Emergency Medical Service Command (recently retired), I find such attitude to truly be shocking. One of the first things taught to EMTs and Paramedics is what is called "Scene Safety". On arrival at a scene, the crews will do a quick "10 Second Scene Safety Survey", which includes looking for downed wires, obviously unstable things like trees and telephone poles overhanging car wrecks, flaming buildings, and people, other than Law Enforcement Officers or the Military, brandishing firearms or knives. Those in EMS are not usually trained in hand to hand combat by their employers, as is the case with the LEOs. Also, if needed, LEOs are carrying firearms of their own, to shoot back if necessary. EMS crews are trained in helping the sick and injured, not in causing some of the injuries they might treat. If an Emergency Medical Technician or Paramedic gets hurt or killed at a violent scene, or on any assignment, they are not available to respond to help anyone else. In addition, a second crew will be needed to respond to the injured first crew, and a third to the original incident. While the second ambulance is leap-frogging over the area covered by the first crew, and the third over both the previous crews, who is going to cover the areas they left while helping at the first crew's scene? I admit that there are specialty trained "Tactical EMS" teams, who respond in to scenes with the SWAT or Hostage Negotiating Teams, or cross trained LEOs who serve in EMS capacity when in the special response. However, as with the US Military, most times, the "medic" is unarmed, and is protected by the armed LEOs (or the Army or Marine unit they are with). The Tactical EMS crews train regularly with the LEOs, which most "line unit" EMS crews do not do. Before you just tell an EMS crew to don the armor, I would suggest you ride a few tours in ambulances that cover areas in Jackson, or any large metropolitan area, known to be prone to violence on Saturday nights. I think that doing so might open your eyes. Respectfully, Richard B, New York State Emergency Medical Technician, FDNY EMS Command (Retired).

Well played, sir.

Let us know if you get a response.

[crotchitymedic1986]

My problem with this is it just based on the call, or is it based on the neighborhood ? Obviously, we should not go in before PD if there is a report of violence (a shooting, assault, stabbing), but if it is a reported cardiac arrest and we are staging because the neighborhood is known to be rough, then that is just racism. And before everyone screams, I could prove it if I were there by simply asking, "Do you do the same practice everytime you respond to the local trailer park (where the poor white people live)?

[Richard B the EMT]

Obviously, we should not go in before PD if there is a report of violence (a shooting, assault, stabbing), but if it is a reported cardiac arrest and we are staging because the neighborhood is known to be rough, then that is just racism.

I am hoping that we are talking about dispatch information, and not generalized area put downs. I have met a bunch of really nice people I'd be honored to have as friends who live in "bad' neighborhoods. I do state that it is racist that, due to one or two fools committing a crime, all living in a community are painted as also being evil folks.

[emtannie]

Crotchity, in the original article, at the start of the second paragraph, it states “City Councilman Kenneth Stokes has threatened to reverse the contract American Medical Response has to serve in the area if the company doesn't send its workers into violent crime scenes, even before police arrive.”

I think that makes the intent of Councilman Stokes’ comments very clear.

As much as you want it to be, since you have brought it up in other threads, this Councilman is not basing his comments on race, and the replies from EMS are not either. It is a question of “is the scene violent? Yes or No.” End of story.

Using race as an excuse, or a crutch in situations like this is just that, and excuse or a crutch. The true issue is that this idiot wants EMS to respond prior to police to violent scenes. Race is only an issue when we allow it to be, and instead of looking at the sins of the past, how about looking to the future, and trying to solve problems instead of creating problems where none exist. Let's keep this thread on topic - that this councilman has his head up his *** and needs to be educated about scene safety and the role of EMS.