COuncilman wants EMS to respond before police in violent incidents

[Chief1C]

[ambodriver]

Well said, you must be able to take off those rose colored glasses that reflect your beliefs as truth, and look for the truth you may not know. I know plenty of agencies that will not respond into a housing project for any call without PD. Funny, I have heard about all these ambulances that get shot at, but I have yet to see one in person. To DELAY Care to a patient based solely on the neighborhood they live in (WHEN A VIOLENT CRIME IS NOT INVOLVED), should be criminal. If I said I wouldn't give care to a white woman who had an abortion because of my religous principles, you would all raise hell. But if I say that minority who lives in the housing project will have to wait an extra 20 minutes on an ambulance, because the neighborhood looks spooky, then that is OK.

As far as poor white people in trailor parks, I have yet to meet a rich white person living in a trailor park. Nor have I met a rich minority in a housing project. Its not racism, its acknowledgement that poor people live in poor neighborhoods.

I don't respond into the projects unless we have PD. Have you been to cabrini green in its heyday? My ambo was never shot at, but they threw rocks and mobbed the back of it quite a few times over there.

I'd love to see you trotting in there...maybe the look outs will let you in as EMS, maybe they will think you are a cop. Is it worth that risk to ya?

Edited November 5, 2010 by ambodriver

[crotchitymedic1986]

Thank you for calling me a troll, in this forum that is "code" for "I can't argue the facts, so lets just label the person who had the nerve to disagree". I thought you might want a few facts that support both sides of the issue:

1) The 2000 census puts the population of Jackson at 61.6% black or A/A. 29% white. I was unable to find actual response time records but if I had to bet which community had the worst public safety response times, Beverly Hills CA, or Jackson, MS. I am going to go with Jackson. Funny how the burbs always seem to have superior public safety to that of the inner-city, but of course race has nothing to do with it. 23% of the population in Jackson lives below the poverty line (that was before the downturn in this economy, I am sure they are all doing much better now).

2) Facts for the other side: In 2007 Jackson was rated as the 23rd most dangerous place to live, and violent crimes rose 238% between 07-08. I read an interesting quote from a medic about the incident that stirred all of this up: He asked why aren't you upset that it took your police 23 minutes to get to a shooting ? Good Question.

I am not asking any medic/emt to go into a known violent situation without PD. I was raising the point that many departments do not respond as timely to bad neighborhoods when there is no violent crime involved. Maybe you respond non-emergent to give PD a little more time, maybe you stage around the block. The 80 year old grandma that lives in Compton has just as much right to an 8 minute response time when she has chest pain, as the 80 year old who lives in Beverly Hills.

But if you have forgotten, I remember a movie based on a Mississippi crime that might explain my logic a little better (although totally different than this situation):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7f-BgDgpmE

[emtannie]

Thank you for calling me a troll, in this forum that is "code" for "I can't argue the facts, so lets just label the person who had the nerve to disagree". I thought you might want a few facts that support both sides of the issue:

Actually, people call you a troll because you continue to derail threads and focus solely on race as an issue, when it is not the issue in the thread. Get over yourself.

1) The 2000 census puts the population of Jackson at 61.6% black or A/A. 29% white. I was unable to find actual response time records but if I had to bet which community had the worst public safety response times, Beverly Hills CA, or Jackson, MS. I am going to go with Jackson. Funny how the burbs always seem to have superior public safety to that of the inner-city, but of course race has nothing to do with it. 23% of the population in Jackson lives below the poverty line (that was before the downturn in this economy, I am sure they are all doing much better now).

Wow – first you say that others don’t quote the facts, and then you do exactly what you belittle others for.

“...I was unable to find actual response time records but if I had to bet which community had the worst public safety response times,….”

You are making this up as you go to support your opinion.

And, when I went to the official Jackson, Missippi site (http://www.jacksonms.gov/government/planning/demographics/) it reports the population as 70.6% black and 27.8% white, not the 61.6% black and 29% white that you quoted without a reference source.

I am not asking any medic/emt to go into a known violent situation without PD.

Agreed – THIS IS THE WHOLE POINT OF THE INITIAL POST, PLEASE KEEP WITH THE PROGRAM…

You post opinions, and demand that others PROVE their point, and when they do, and provide links and articles to support it, you ignore them. For example, on page 3 of this thread, ERdoc provided a number of examples of ambulance shootings to refuse your comments. You chose to ignore that. I requested that you refrain from hijacking this thread for your own agenda of arguing race, and you chose to ignore that. You wonder why you are considered a troll. Look at your own actions.

[ERDoc]

Again, this has nothing to do with race. Priority #1 is crew safety. If that means delaying pt care until PD is there then so be it. There is no reason to go into a place known to have guns/violence when you are not armed. You are setting yourself up for failure. That 80y/o lady might not be trying to shoot you but the drunk guy next door with the shot gun might be trying to shot his wife and miss. Someone up partaking in illegal activities may see the lights coming up the road and assume police and start shooting. Why would you go into a neighborhood knowing that there is the potential for you to get hurt? It has absolutely nothing to do with the race of the people but if those particular neighborhoods happen to be made up one one particular race then that is just the way it is. Crotchity, you are called a troll because you enter every thread screaming about race and have nothing valuable to add. I think you are an idiot because you just don't get it. Where all you see is a person's color, the rest of us only see a patient. Get over it already.

[crotchitymedic1986]

I did not ignore ER docs 5 or 6 shootings nationwide that have occured since the 50s-60's. It actually makes my point. If you gave a drug that you knew worked without complication 99.9% of the time, over a 50 year period, but your partner argued that you should not give it because he read a post on an internet blog yesterday, would you still give it ?

For all the fears of our unsafe scenes (code for minority neighborhoods), where are all the dead and wounded medics ? I am not denying that medics get assaulted or find themselves in dangersous situations on rare occassions. Why not wait for PD on every call ? How do you know that the nice home in the suburb you are about to enter isn't a methlab ? How do you know the rich white guy in the mansion doesn't beat his wife ? Actually, if you wanted to do something about deaths and injuries in our industry, you would do more driving training, as you are far more likely to die in a vehicle accident.

To those who say it isnt about race: Like Mathew said in the clip, pretend he his white. You put a white victim in a white neighborhood, and then give it a 23 minute public safety response time, and see how it is treated differently ?

[emtannie]

I did not ignore ER docs 5 or 6 shootings nationwide that have occured since the 50s-60's. It actually makes my point. If you gave a drug that you knew worked without complication 99.9% of the time, over a 50 year period, but your partner argued that you should not give it because he read a post on an internet blog yesterday, would you still give it ?

I too looked at ERDoc’s links…

- video 1 – color in car cam, definitely not from 50 years ago

- video 2 – dated August 18, 2010

- video 3 – august 1, 2006

- video 4 – august 19, 2005

- video 5 – july 21, 2008

- video 6 – December 21, 2006

- video 7 – September 3, 2009

Funny, I see videos from the last 5 years, not the last 50, so your point is completely irrelevant.

For all the fears of our unsafe scenes (code for minority neighborhoods), …..

I think I am going to start calling you Col. Flagg, like the guy on M*A*S*H, who was convinced that everyone and everything was subversive and out to get him.

I am tired of your “code for..” comments that you use when you have no actual facts.

Again, I would like to remind you, that until confronted, you haven’t responded with a viable argument to posts others have made that actually have facts; you choose to completely ignore the original post, which had NOTHING to do with race; and again, you have not come up with any evidence to support your claims…

Once again, sir, you have proven yourself a troll.

[DwayneEMTP]

For all the fears of our unsafe scenes (code for minority neighborhoods), where are all the dead and wounded medics ?

Undead for having the sense to follow logical procedure.

... Why not wait for PD on every call ? How do you know that the nice home in the suburb you are about to enter isn't a methlab ? How do you know the rich white guy in the mansion doesn't beat his wife ? Actually, if you wanted to do something about deaths and injuries in our industry, you would do more driving training, as you are far more likely to die in a vehicle accident.

Because that is not my experience. Again Crotchity, and I actually tried to enter into this conversation with you and you did in fact ignore me, you allow only for one answer, that if the statistics, or personal experience shows that I am unsafe in an poor black neighborhood, then I am a racist. Am I racist? Possibly, but using common sense and making decisions based on personal experience doesn't make me so.

I asked you if you and you're black partner would run into a party of drunk rednecks. Again, you ignored the question because it devalues your entire argument if you'd said no, and you show yourself to be ignorant and dangerous if you'd said yes. No one here will take you serously as long as you choose only to catch the pop flys.

To those who say it isnt about race: Like Mathew said in the clip, pretend he his white. You put a white victim in a white neighborhood, and then give it a 23 minute public safety response time, and see how it is treated differently ?

I did that in my question. And when the redneck grandma has to wait for 23 mintues because they've created an environment where help is afraid to enter because of past experience then I'll say, "Man, that sucks. I'm guessing that that 90 year old grandmother didn't create the issues that caused the wait. Those folks should be ashamed of themselves."

Dwayne

[crotchitymedic1986]

I am not calling you or anyone else a racist, but I am stating that "race" is part of this issue. You are right, myself and a black partner on a back dirt road in Mississippi would probably feel uncomfortable due to the history that is there. I would also feel uncomfortable in a gay bar. I would also feel uncomfortable looking at the injured privates of a minor male or female patient. I feel uncomfortable when I have to roll or move a 700lb patient because I know the sights and smells that are about to come. But my "uncomfortableness" should not result in a patient suffering, or should it ?

Someone correctly identifies that the 7 videos are all recent. Ok, most urban EMS agencies run 50k-150k EMS calls per year PER CITY. I do not know how many EMS calls were run in the entire US in the past 20 years, but I am guessing it is several million. According to this source:

http://www.nena.org/911-statistics there are 240 million 911 calls made in the US each year, lets just say that only 10% (which you know is way low) were EMS calls, which is 24 million, multiplied times the last 10 years, puts us back at 240 million calls, and you have less than a fraction of 1% producing injuries and deaths.

My guess is that your likelyhood of getting shot or stabbed on an EMS call is probably less than your chances of getting struck by lightning, while on an EMS call. Maybe we should stop running calls when it rains.

According to this site: http://www.lightningsafety.noaa.gov/medical.htm , watch out now, the troll has sited references again: There are an average of 60 deaths from lightening strikes in the US EVERY YEAR. Can anyone on this site produce examples of 60 or more medic deaths from responding to calls this year or any other year (not vehicle accidents, but attacked while in the HOOD) ? If you respond to calls when its raining, then you need to start responding to the homes of the poor people in the same fashion.

Come on, I know one of you sees the hypocricy here, and will stand up for the poor. Remember, I have not said you should respond to violent calls without PD, all I am saying is that you shouldnt delay care to the poor, because the neighborhood is scary (someone hold me, I'm scared).

Edited November 8, 2010 by crotchitymedic1986

[HERBIE1]

Just wanted to point out something that crotchity asserted about response times. In my area, the ghettos have more police, fire and EMS protection per square mile than in any other area in the city. Social service agencies, city services, free clinics- nowhere else in the city has this concentration of city provided services,and it's still not enough. Why? Obviously because there is a need- real and/or manufactured.

Problem is, the call volume for public safety in these areas is also HUGE, with a great deal of it being for NONEMERGENT issues. Thus, unless you had an EMS unit, police car, or fire truck on every street corner, there simply is not enough services to always meet the need in the quickest manner.

Here's a dirty little secret- In the area I live in, our response times are actually much WORSE than in the ghettos. Why? Because the area is safe, we don't have the gangs, drugs, violence, etc, thus many of the public safety assets have been redeployed to the ghettos(some temporarily, some permanently) to supplement the coverage already there. Can I cry reverse racism?