COuncilman wants EMS to respond before police in violent incidents

[mobey]

If I said I wouldn't give care to a white woman who had an abortion because of my religous principles, you would all raise hell. But if I say that minority who lives in the housing project will have to wait an extra 20 minutes on an ambulance, because the neighborhood looks spooky, then that is OK.

But if I say oranges are orange, and apples have cores, that would be a laughable comparison too.

Troll indeed

[Richard B the EMT]

Does the dispatch information give any indication of immediate past, or active violence in progress? That is one deciding factor.

Some jurisdictions have preprogrammed information in the computer assisted dispatch system, where a premise history will pop up. We had one location where EMS was on orders to not go in the building until the NYPD precinct cops were on the scene, and NYPD Emergency Services at minimum notified, or responding. The premise history was entered after a frequent flier patient went after a crew with a knife in one hand, and a ball peen hammer in the other. EMS and the cops didn't care that the patient was at least 70, with a diagnosed cardiac condition, which the patient always vehemently denied (I had him once). The crew's safety came first.

(For those old timers here from NYC HHC EMS with the knowledge, I'm talking about "Merlin")

[DwayneEMTP]

Well said, you must be able to take off those rose colored glasses that reflect your beliefs as truth, and look for the truth you may not know. I know plenty of agencies that will not respond into a housing project for any call without PD. Funny, I have heard about all these ambulances that get shot at, but I have yet to see one in person. To DELAY Care to a patient based solely on the neighborhood they live in (WHEN A VIOLENT CRIME IS NOT INVOLVED), should be criminal. If I said I wouldn't give care to a white woman who had an abortion because of my religous principles, you would all raise hell. But if I say that minority who lives in the housing project will have to wait an extra 20 minutes on an ambulance, because the neighborhood looks spooky, then that is OK.

As far as poor white people in trailor parks, I have yet to meet a rich white person living in a trailor park. Nor have I met a rich minority in a housing project. Its not racism, its acknowledgement that poor people live in poor neighborhoods.

Man...outstanding response. I truly don't know how I feel on this issue now.

So are you saying then Crotchity that you and your black partner would drive into the redneck trailer park while a drunken party was going on without concern for your safety? (For the record, I spent the majority of my childhood as poor white trash (Each word working as a separate and combined description) and it has also been my experience that trailer parks were common places for us to live. It is also my experience that if you would choose to do as described that you should no longer be allowed to make significant decisions on an ambulance)

I think I see your point, but your point seems to imply that if I haven't been attacked in this house then I am a bigot for considering the fact that my coworkers have been endangered in the houses on either side? You seem enraged that a child would have a delay in care simply because he happened to become wounded in the middle of a war zone, say, Compton. And truly sad it is, but isn't it also a fact of life?

I hope you will consider the above as sincere questions as intended. The others that say that it is a neighborhood/social strata issue make good points, but those descriptions of the problem seem to be missing something for me. To on the other hand make it a strictly racial issue is off in the ditch as well...Man, I don't know..I'm on the fence and getting splinters, so I look forward to the continued debate...

Dwayne

[Richard B the EMT]

Just throwing this into the mix, but Hilary Swank was born into a poor white trailer park family. Nature or nurture?

[uglyEMT]

I am wondering here. When did race become part of the problem with the article?

I have reread the entire thing on multiple sites and reread this thread multiple times. I never spotted race until a poster made it about race.

From my understanding the councilman wants EMS to respond directly into VIOLENT CRIME scenes without waiting for PD response. I dont see where a distinction is made in that statement. White black brown yellow purple green anyone can be violent, from "poor white trash" to "wealthy movie stars" to everyone in between.

I think the big thing to remember here is VIOLENT CRIME scenes. Dispatched VIOLENT CRIME scenes.

Yes I understand where folks are coming from by saying certain neighborhoods and such. Yes I dont see the world through rose colored glasses and understand that certain areas and folks can be and usually are disturbed by seeing anyone in uniform. We make generalities based on experience and history of areas and know when we should or should not enter.

If I am not mistaken this article stems from an incident during the summer where a EMS crew staged a block or so away from a multiple shooting scene while PD secured the area and one of the shooting victims perished. What made it enraging to the local people was that they were pounding on the sides of the ambulance wanting them to get out and help the victim but wouldn't until PD said all clear. I also believe a bystander carried one of the vicitims to the rig in their arms and the crew didnt get out. I might be confusing to seperate incidents but I do believe I have my facts straight.

I am not going to go down the whole race card road, I am sick and tired of everything devolving into a race issue so I will stop here with it.

Bottom line, if you are dispatched to a violent crime scene I dont think any of us would enter without PD. Vest or no vest it is still a crime scene and as such needs to be secured prior to our entry.

[mobey]

I am wondering here. When did race become part of the problem with the article?

It is not. Crotchity is a Troll, and tries to destroy each thread with religion, pregidous, racism... etc etc.

That is all that has happened here. You will now see some members try to get into an intellectual debate (DwayneEMTP) with crotchity, but to no avail. Although Crotchity has made a good point here and there on this forum, overall he is a pest, and makes bold statements that derail threads and personally attack members, then disappears.

[DwayneEMTP]

It is not. Crotchity is a Troll, and tries to destroy each thread with religion, pregidous, racism... etc etc.

That is all that has happened here. You will now see some members try to get into an intellectual debate (DwayneEMTP) with crotchity, but to no avail. Although Crotchity has made a good point here and there on this forum, overall he is a pest, and makes bold statements that derail threads and personally attack members, then disappears.

Yeah, alright, point taken. I tend to like the racial discussions as as a kid I didn't grow up around much racial diversity. Whites, mexicans, indians, that was pretty much it. But you're right. Trying to have that discussion with Crotchity would be an exercise in futility.

As often is the case, thanks for saving me from myslef... :-)

Dwayne

[fakingpatience]

Does the dispatch information give any indication of immediate past, or active violence in progress? That is one deciding factor.

Some jurisdictions have preprogrammed information in the computer assisted dispatch system, where a premise history will pop up. We had one location where EMS was on orders to not go in the building until the NYPD precinct cops were on the scene, and NYPD Emergency Services at minimum notified, or responding. The premise history was entered after a frequent flier patient went after a crew with a knife in one hand, and a ball peen hammer in the other. EMS and the cops didn't care that the patient was at least 70, with a diagnosed cardiac condition, which the patient always vehemently denied (I had him once). The crew's safety came first.

(For those old timers here from NYC HHC EMS with the knowledge, I'm talking about "Merlin")

I used to work in a place that had a computer system like that. Certain addresses could be flagged by dispatch for having violent offenses in the past, and whenever that address popped up, we always had PD go in first to clear a scene, regardless of what the call was for. As much as it sucks, there are people who will attack us simply because we are dressed in uniform. A call for a child w/ difficulty breathing could lead us into a very volatile scene, and IMO, if we know that location has a hx of violence, then it is our right and responsibility to wait for PD to get there first. As much as I want to help others, mine and my partners safety comes first.

I miss having the computer system where you could see a record of recent calls to the address, and see if it was a flagged address. We don't get any computer info here, it is all what the dispatchers choose to give us over the radio, and sometimes they forget/ don't think info is important enough to say. A couple weeks ago, I called on location to a call, and was told "the scene is now safe to enter" I was NOT HAPPY with dispatch, since we had never been told the scene wasn't safe...

[uglyEMT]

My partner and I were talking about this last night while waiting for the tones to drop.

We came to the conclusion that it is possible the reason that this person feels we should enter ahead of PD is the damn TV shows and also a skewed view of military medics. (I am not saying anything about military or SWAT medics here, just he may have a skewed view).

Too many episodes of TV shows show us in a poor light to begin with, but when they show us sneaking into a violent scene to rescue a wounded person or using our rig as a shield, ect ect the lay person views this as what we do everyday. They come to expect us to do these things and when we dont they are up in arms over it. I feel what needs to be done is a PSA or ride alongs whatever. We need to educate folks on what are roles (Bs, Is, Ps) really are in the prehospital environment.

We all know what we are taught from day one, SCENE SAFETY, we come first, then our partner, finally the patient. I know it would boggle lay persons minds that we think that way but if they could see it from our point of view most, if not all, would agree that we are correct in our thinking.

We as an industry need to educate the public. Hell fire dept across the country (I am speaking from the American system, I dont have knowledge of international systems) always do educational things with schools, PTAs, organizations, PSAs, ect. I never could figure out why we dont. We need to educate to get rid of the stigma that TV shows portray us as.

If a town, service, county, ect really wants tactical EMS (thats what he really is asking for here) then make a division, service, teams and train them as such. Budget issues? Attach them to the PD then. Teach proper scene clearing, tactical principles, recon, sweep and clear. Give them body armor, no not your average stab vest or flak vest, I mean SWAT body armor. Then and only then if you have a scene which really needs EMS (in any of its capacities) to really enter before PD you have them at the ready. As I type that sentence I laughed about a thought, folks will say well we dont need that all the time yada yada BUT no one complains of SWAT in the PD service do they? Police have levels of service just as we do when you thing about the difference between your average LEO and a SWAT member. Your average beat cop will hold up behind their vehicle and ask for assistance with a hold up suspect or an outgunned suspect. SWAT shows up and does all their cool things. They are not an everday service in use but when required they do their job. Why not EMS in this person's mind? Tactical EMS for those violent scenes.

Heck you can have those members still roll with their normal duty crews but when that scene comes up they get punched out and do their thing.

Ok I know that may be extreme but heck at 7am after a mind numbing shift wierd things happen upstairs in my belfry.

I think this councilmen really needs a ride along! Bring him into those "bad" areas at 2am on a Saturday night, show him what the streets are really like instead of his warm cushy bed. Show him how fast a scene goes from difficulty breathing to man with gun screaming he's going to kill you. Or better yet, have him ready to go when that violent scene punches out and have him see what it means to be in that exact situation without PD. Scared straight program with a twist LOL

Ok I might have rambled a little there and went every which way but I think you can see where I am coming from and where I am going with this post.

EDUCATE THE MASSES

I know in January when I take my roll as First LT in my squad I am going to sit down with my Captain and some city leaders and try to get a program initiated, at least to the grammer schools and then the high school. Dont know any high school kid that wouldnt want to see an extrication or a grammer school kid that wouldnt want to see the rig and play with a siren.

Thats all for now...

[ERDoc]

Well said, you must be able to take off those rose colored glasses that reflect your beliefs as truth, and look for the truth you may not know.

I'm not sure if this was directed at me or not, but it seems that you are the one looking through colored glasses as you are the only one who continues to bring up race.

I know plenty of agencies that will not respond into a housing project for any call without PD. Funny, I have heard about all these ambulances that get shot at, but I have yet to see one in person.

Will these help?

http://paramedictv.ems1.com/media/331-Ambulance-Shot-in-Drive-by/

http://www.wsaz.com/news/headlines/100960969.html

http://sors.wordpress.com/2006/08/02/madison-co-nc-paramedic-shot/

http://www.sportbikes.ws/showthread.php?t=62386

http://www.ems1.com/ems-products/personal-protective-equipment-ppe/articles/420755-Paramedic-firefighter-killed-in-St-Louis-area-standoff/

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23739685-i-was-shot-twice-on-999-call-after-treating-a-patient.do

Is that enough examples?

To DELAY Care to a patient based solely on the neighborhood they live in (WHEN A VIOLENT CRIME IS NOT INVOLVED), should be criminal. If I said I wouldn't give care to a white woman who had an abortion because of my religous principles, you would all raise hell.

You are comparing apples and oranges here. To deny treatment based on your personal beliefs/feelings is unethical and unprofessional. To not go into an area with a history of violence is personal safety. The two cannot be compared. You are not putting your life in jeopardy by treating someone who you disagree with. Again, it is comparing apples and oranges.

But if I say that minority who lives in the housing project will have to wait an extra 20 minutes on an ambulance, because the neighborhood looks spooky, then that is OK.

Here, let me fix this.

But if I say that white guy who lives in the housing project will have to wait an extra 20 minutes on an ambulance, because the neighborhood has a history of violence, then that is OK.

But if I say that asian guy who lives in the housing project will have to wait an extra 20 minutes on an ambulance, because the neighborhood has a history of violence, then that is OK.

But if I say that Princess Diana lives in the housing project will have to wait an extra 20 minutes on an ambulance, because the neighborhood has a history of violence, then that is OK.

But if I say that Jesus Christ lives in the housing project will have to wait an extra 20 minutes on an ambulance, because the neighborhood has a history of violence, then that is OK.

But if I say that Al Sharpton lives in the housing project will have to wait an extra 20 minutes on an ambulance, because the neighborhood has a history of violence, then that is OK.

But if I say that George Bush lives in the housing project will have to wait an extra 20 minutes on an ambulance, because the neighborhood has a history of violence, then that is OK.

But if I say that ERDoc's mother lives in the housing project will have to wait an extra 20 minutes on an ambulance, because the neighborhood has a history of violence, then that is OK.

See the difference? It doesn't matter who it is that lives in the neighborhood or what color they are. It is the neighborhood that they live in that is the issue.

As far as poor white people in trailor parks, I have yet to meet a rich white person living in a trailor park. Nor have I met a rich minority in a housing project. Its not racism, its acknowledgement that poor people live in poor neighborhoods.

And there you have put the nail in the coffin for your argument about race. As you so eloquently point out, it has nothing to do with race but has more to do with socioeconomic status. Neighborhoods that are primarily of a low socioeconomic status (whether they be black, white, Jewish, Italian, Irish, Chinese, etc) have higher crime rates. Again, this has nothing to do with race, so take off your colored goggles and see what is really going on.

Edited November 5, 2010 by ERDoc