Freedom of speech, or not?

[Just Plain Ruff]

herbie, you and I speak same language. I already posted that this would be considered a hate crime and prosecuted as such. But the first amendment applies here too. He can say whatever he likes but unfortunately the hate crime will do him in.

One question for the group

If we have hate crime legislation and prosecute for such, doesn't that go against the first amendment? I mean if you can say anything you like, no matter how offensive the message is, can a hate crime be charged?

If it's speech we are talking about, and we do have a 1st amendment right to express our views, then do hate crimes apply on speech issues?

Just asking

[uglyEMT]

Actually there is nothing to prosicute. There is no hate crime here. Bad taste yes but nothing illegal.

The only time 1st admendment cant be used is to insight violence. That is why the KKK, Arian Brotherhood, ect ect can hold rallies and such with permit. They keep the rehtoric just below the level of insighting violence.

Being he also hung a Klan'smen too he has the whole "Im not a racist" thing going for him.

Yes its disturbing and disgusting especially in this day and age but unfortunatly it happens.

As for what Ruff is asking about. Ruff to attach hate crime to an act it has to be deamed a prosicutable offence. IE beating the crap out of someone is assault and battery. Now during the offence say something dirogitory about the person's race creed sexual status or religon NOW its a hate crime thus moves you from A&B to Hate Crime. As for speech, unless your calling on folks to riot or cause violence then you can say anything you wish without worring about hate crime. Its a grey area for sure and a tight rope for legal teams but thankfully in our great country you can say what you wish without fear of persicution or prosicution. Not saying its right but it is legal.

I still feel this guy was an Asshat

[DwayneEMTP]

That was my question as well. To dress up as a Klansman or black person and be offensive seems like it would be one thing, to show a black person being killed seems like it would be another.

As to him being prosecuted, I can't remember if it was in the article or the video I watched, but he's done this at least several years in a row now. I love how he says something to the effect, "People are shaking my hand and showing their gratitude for someone still being proud of their white heritage." What a dickhead. If I hang my dog from a tree is that then somehow showing my pride in being human?

And Herbie, Ruff, as far as hate crime legislation going against the first amendment, I believe that covers actions, doesn't it? If I beat you because you're black, then I've committed a hate crime. If I state that "I wish all of the kikes and N****** in the world would just die" then I believe that I've moved back to protected speech. Not sure though.

For the record, as these discussions when had in a frank, open manner are subject to misunderstanding. I don't love or hate any particular color, sexual orientation (Well, ok, so I do have a preference here), religion, etc, etc, etc. I want every person on the planet to be able to succeed, or fail, and find love based strictly on their desires and/or abilities. I choose not to hate, and I refuse to support haters when possible.

Cool discussion..

Dwayne

[uglyEMT]

Thanks for the cool discussion Dwayne!

I agree with you, I dont hate anybody based on their color creed nationality religon ect ect. I do wish we all could get along (sorry Rodny) but unfortunatly Asshats are everywhere and nothing we do changes that fact.

Again thanks for the cool discussion

[JPINFV]

First amendment protection = Yes

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances

Now, someone could argue that this is hate crime and the prosecuting attorney could go after him on that line. That is the most logical way for the county to go in my opinion.

I don't agree that this is a freedom of speech case as I would like to know what exactly he is advocating. "Kill ____ because they ____" would most likely not be protected. This is completely different than a "Support _____ group, even if _____ group has a nice long history of doing really bad things in addition to 'political activism.'" However, there is no such thing as 'freedom from offense.'

As far as hate crimes, making the intent of a crime worth extra prison time is starting down the short path to 1984 and thought crimes. Murder is murder and there shouldn't be an 'extra bad murder' because someone's intent is some sort of psychopathic enjoyment, or racism or other forms of hate.

[HERBIE1]

That was my question as well. To dress up as a Klansman or black person and be offensive seems like it would be one thing, to show a black person being killed seems like it would be another.

As to him being prosecuted, I can't remember if it was in the article or the video I watched, but he's done this at least several years in a row now. I love how he says something to the effect, "People are shaking my hand and showing their gratitude for someone still being proud of their white heritage." What a dickhead. If I hang my dog from a tree is that then somehow showing my pride in being human?

And Herbie, Ruff, as far as hate crime legislation going against the first amendment, I believe that covers actions, doesn't it? If I beat you because you're black, then I've committed a hate crime. If I state that "I wish all of the kikes and N****** in the world would just die" then I believe that I've moved back to protected speech. Not sure though.

For the record, as these discussions when had in a frank, open manner are subject to misunderstanding. I don't love or hate any particular color, sexual orientation (Well, ok, so I do have a preference here), religion, etc, etc, etc. I want every person on the planet to be able to succeed, or fail, and find love based strictly on their desires and/or abilities. I choose not to hate, and I refuse to support haters when possible.

Cool discussion..

Dwayne

If someone simply makes a racial or sexual orientation slur in the commission of a crime, then it can automatically escalates it to a "hate crime". Something such as this as a hate crime- I think it depends on the creativity of the prosecutor. To my understanding, simply making the comment/grafiti/effigy, etc WITHOUT breaking some other law I believe would fall under 1st amendment protection. Crude, tasteless, immoral, inflammatory- it could be considered many things, but it would still be protected.

[Just Plain Ruff]

Actually there is nothing to prosicute. There is no hate crime here. Bad taste yes but nothing illegal.

The only time 1st admendment cant be used is to insight violence. That is why the KKK, Arian Brotherhood, ect ect can hold rallies and such with permit. They keep the rehtoric just below the level of insighting violence.

Being he also hung a Klan'smen too he has the whole "Im not a racist" thing going for him.

Actually Ugly, they can prosecute the guy, they just have to prove that his thoughts were a hate crime. People have been charged for less.

If they can assert that the guy was intent on hate then they can prosecute him.

It's no different than prosecutors trying to charge pastors with preaching against homosexuality from their pulpits then they can prosecute this guy for promoting a black figure being hung by a klansman.

Not saying that the charges will get to court but all they have to assert is that there was a hateful message intended to scare or frighten blacks in his neighborhood and they have a hate crime.

What surprises me is Where is Crotchity on this one? I can't believe he's not all over this one?

[aussiephil]

I read this thread from a slightly different perspecctive, not a legal one, but a Politically Correct one.

In the not too distant past we had race riots that brought about so called equality, women burned the bra etc. Now, we cant go out & have a gay time, because it means something completley different, God forbid if we had a gay time at the Dyke!!!!!!!

Yes, times have changed, this i find offensive, but that aside, would we be having the same discussion if it was in a predominatley black neighbourhood, with a white mans effigy hanging surrounded by effigies of blacks? To me it is just as offensive.

The brave new PC world is changing us, not to be more accepting, racism is learned behaviour, acceptance comes naturally, but to be more resentful of those it is meant to protect. Positive discrimination is appropriate in some cases, but to exclude under this guise is more offensive than the scene in the newspaper story.

I think the story shown is only the tip of the iceberg.

I am proudly a white caucasion male of anglo saxon decent. I am, i believe, in the majority in my country. I am treated as a leper, with assistance available to minority groups hand over fist, but what assistance is available to me? Almost none. Does this not instill some resentment within? Of course it does.

As First world nations we have responsibilities that I have spoken of ad nauseum, we need to offer protection, but, & this is a big but (much like mine), not at the expense of those who also contribute to our society.

Equality should mean equality.

I do not consider myself or believe that I am racist. I have friends whos origins are diverse. We all look at each other as equals, as we should. Do they expect me to show them more consideration because they are in a monority? No. Much of the PC mumbo jumbo being preached to us is from people who have no idea & think they know how others feel. They percieve there is a problem, or our politicians concoct a problem to divert attention away from real issues that could effect their re-election.

Is it racist, probably, will you change the guys beliefs? Nope. Should we force our ideologies upon him? Well, lets look at the thread about the mosque at ground zero.........

Phil

What I have typed here is from the heart. My US friends who know me, you know what I believe, to those who don't, if I have said anything offensive, please accept my humblest apologies, it was not intended & is most likley a cross cultural issue, not intended to offend. Thanks.

[tniuqs]

Equality should mean equality.

btw your friends in the larger landmass just to the North of USA ... yup the Euro-Canadians agree we too are fed up ... but polite enough to be crushed my minority rights.

Query: so when does 2 wrongs make a right ?

Time for equality, history is history why punish one group because our fore fathers were screwed up ... so do we punish daily the Germans because of the Nazis, do we PC punish the OZ because the abos in OZ were mistreated 50 years ago, do we punish the "taxpayers" in Kanukistan because we interned the Japanese Canadians in the 50s ? Do we punish financially the Euro-Canadians because first nations or our forefathers and religious groups that put them into residential schools suffered ..

WHEN does the "BLAME WHITEY the CRACKER STOP ? I personally read about this in history books but why because I am White European descent and a short dick ...( opps outside voice again) yet I am persecuted because of my ancestors governments inequalities ... ?

So Lets get realistic, Dogs are smarter than stupid Humans because they live in the NOW.

Then again maybe Archie Bunker was right ... Polish aka " all Polocks" are stupid"

cheers