Ground Zero cops & firefighters don’t deserve workers’ comp claims

[DwayneEMTP]

Ugly, Dawg, points taken. That is why I decided to chew on this for a bit before deciding how I feel..And Yet I'm still not sure. Though Dawg, I'm not sure why you say that the tone is uncalled for? That is how he feels about the subject, why should his tone not reflect that?

(Below please read 'fire' to mean the majority of the fire services/larger fire unions. I know that there are true 'smoke eaters' out there and have nothing but respect for them. Also I know that there are many that do the job for love of their community, I just happen to believe that 90% of those that claim to are either bullshitting themselves or trying to bullshit me. I love many firemen, some of my best friends are current or previous firemen, I simply have no respect for the fire services. Just wanted to try and be clear about that before the following comments got a bunch of hero worshipers crying.)

I'm sick to death of most of the bullshit that comes out of the fire services. Well paid, good bennies, but on almost any given day you can find a story of someone trying to do less, cheat, steal, lie, and get more. And yet, they still have no problem taking a bow any time someone uses the word 'hero' within their hearing. Of course I'm generalizing, but unfortunately for the fire services, these dirtbags are becoming more and more visible and are going to begin hurting fires hero image with the public I think.

I want no one to suffer. But I've worked the oil spill in LA for the last 4 months and see what happens when there is a big pile of money and people start fighting for their 'victim' status. Those of us that spent some time overseas in support of our military have been exposed to all sorts of nasty shit from TB to all of the toxic leftovers from generations of bombings yet ask no special treatment, as that is the gig we signed on for.

I just have a bad taste in my mouth when I watch people strut around saying, "I do this to serve. I put my life on the line every day for you!" (Bullshit) But then when something bad happens many immediately go to, "Holy shit!! Did you see that!! I almost got killed! Somebody should pay me something! I shouldn't have to work any more because that gave me bad dreams!" We speak of the younger generation of kids and their sense of entitlement, though I don't think that I've ever seen such a sense of entitlement as that that comes from the fire services. I think others, as the man in the editorial, see it as well, and are also fed up with it.

I want everyone to get what they fairly deserve. I guess where I have trouble with fire is that they have been getting so much more than they deserve for so long, been basking in the glory of the "Someday you'll see why they call me a hero!" that it's hard for me to drum up sympathy now that they've actually had the 'oh shit' moment they are so famous for crowing about and find that being a hero sometimes comes with risks. They want to be heros, but don't want to accept risks. How does that work exactly?

I'm truly on the fence, and that's not a usual state of affairs for me. I'll have to wait until my betters talk about it a bit and see if I can find a place to land from your comments.

And Ugly, I don't see any way that they could have listed the majority of these people with preexisting conditions unless they tried to get insurance after the incident. And that's just not how insurance works.

Have a great day all...

Dwayne

Edited to add the text in parentheses.

Edited December 17, 2010 by DwayneEMTP

[uglyEMT]

No problem Dwayne.

I know what you mean about the insurance. I am only speaking from news stories from my local area that have happened since 9/11. Folks that have lost their jobs in the interm that have applied for new policies have been denied. I dont know if it was clear in my last post but the Health Care Bill also covers civilians that lived in the local neighborhoods so some that may have been unemployed before and found employment since have been denied or were put on capped coverage.

I understand what you mean by the "hero" comments some make. Like you, I have FF friends and aquantences. Even they talk about the blow hards. I do agree with you that the "I do this to serve. I put my life on the line every day for you!" is over done and might be the bullshit they tell themselves when they look in the mirror everyday to justify themselves.

I do feel the Health Care Bill will help many, yes it will be abused (got to love our day and age), but for those that really need it it will help tremendously.

I would like to make one comment if I may about your one statment

Those of us that spent some time overseas in support of our military have been exposed to all sorts of nasty shit from TB to all of the toxic leftovers from generations of bombings yet ask no special treatment, as that is the gig we signed on for.

I know service members don't ask for special treatment so don't misunderstand my next statment. You still get special treatment though. You have the VA Hospitals, I know they are not the best but still. If you need them they are there for you. This Bill will be like that for 9/11 victims. If you were there, in any capacity including just living in the neighborhood, you are guarenteed medical coverage and treatments. That I do feel is fair.

As far as disability claims. Agree with you. Far too many "back injuries" without loss of quality of personal life to go around. Now some of these 9/11 workers are gravely ill and legitametly need their disability claims and those are the ones I am fighting for. The ones that have died, soon will, or are so incapacitated that they have low if not zero quality of life. Those are the ones that need this Bill. PTSD guys, "I have nightmares" guys and others I can't think of right now... sorry I don't think so. I did it, I survived, I have issues yes but I don't whine about it and ask for a hand out. I went to therapy, I got the help I needed, I manned up and took care of my business and never once filed a claim. I could have had my hand out from day one but I wasn't raised that way. I did what i had to do. As I stated in another thread took 9 years to heal enough to relive it but "hey its a process." (nod to Analyse That).

I am mad at this gentelman because of his tone and the way he tries to make ALL victims evil. I know it is his opinion and he is entitled to it just as I am mine so no issues with that. I just take issue with the statment we all should be reprimanded for what we did and with the fact he is "better" then us (I say us cause I was there) because he came back from Vietnam because he had all "the right stuff to get the job done" and we didn't use all our equipment everyday 24/7 for all the days we were on The Pile.

Hopefully I made myself clear, I have reread this post several times and it sounds like I did but incase I didn't and offended anyone please except my appology at this time, I ment no offense to anyone.

edited to reparagraph. no contexual changes made.

Edited December 17, 2010 by UGLyEMT

[HERBIE1]

There is an old joke in the fire service where the wanna be's and pretender FF's allegedly "cook "their fire helmets in ovens to make it appear they actually had fire experience. Not entirely a joke- I know several who have probably done this. Problem is, when the crap hits the fan, it IS a dangerous job, and I count many FF's as close friends who would gladly put their lives in danger for someone else. Because fires are way down, many have gone into the fire service because of the benefits, job security and pay, knowing full well the worst fire they may ever see is rubbish or an auto fire.

We have plenty of posers in EMS too- "inspector gadget" types who carry more crap on their belts than many people stock on their rigs.

In almost every case, the more someone talks about their experiences, the less they really have seen. True heroes don't talk about it, they just do it. They want no accolades, they want no atta boy's, they simply do their jobs.

As to those who worked at Ground Zero, they DID risk their lives and their health. My question is- if not them- WHO would have done what they did? Yes, I'm sure shortcuts were taken in terms of PPE, but as Ug said, initially they were working RESCUE, and at that point, you may not take every precaution when you are trying to save a comrade or civilians. This attack was unprecedented- it was this generation's Pearl Harbor, and NOBODY could have predicted what ultimately happened that day. This was not just an attack on the WTC, the Pentagon, and Pennsylvania, it was an attack on our entire country. I would also like to think that- gawd forbid- if something like this happens again, we- first responders and civilians alike- would do things differently. Are some of the people scamming the system? I'm sure- it's human nature, even for us, but the VAST MAJORITY of these folks are seriously ill because of the sacrifices they made that day.

Should we take care of them financially? Abso-friggin-lutely.

. When I think of all the crap we waste BILLIONS of dollars on every day, the thought of balking at putting out money for this is disgusting to me.

[DwayneEMTP]

Yeah Ugly, as I read your post I find myself calling bullshit on myself here. I've slung the term hypocrite around plenty, but perhaps I have to wear it this time...

Not long ago I was in a thread just friggin' beside myself not understanding why people can't understand that I'm anti death penalty. It seems so obvious to me that we can not allow one single innocent person to suffer simply to make sure that ALL of the bad guys suffer. Some bad guys have to walk if we're going to protect the rights of the innocent. Yet in this thread I was having trouble with the concept that to make sure that all deserving get cared for then we simply have to accept that a gazillion assnapkins are going to hit the lottery. It makes me sick, but you're right, it is the right thing to do.

It would be nice if the money could be spent intelligently, but we have a ton of docs that are willing to lie matched with a ton of public employees that are willing to limp and cough on cue. We'll just have to hope that there is something left for those that actually deserve to be loved and cared for.

Thanks for hanging in there Ugly...I knew if I waited long enough, kept reading, someone would make up my mind for me... :-)

Dwayne

[Underdawg3ate1]

Dwayne, I guess what I mean by being uncalled for was for him (to what I was under the impression) to dog out ALL providers the way he did. Being that he's a Vietnam Vet, I'm sure when he returned home he caught an unbelievable amount of flack and barely any support of this countries citizens and gov. To me the way he worded his letter makes him no better then those who probably called him a baby killer amongst other insults (I try my hardest to live by the "treat others as you would like to be treated" motto). If he worded it in a less hostile tone I think I could relate more to the point he was getting at. It just felt counterproductive in my opinion, especially were he states that he knows of many cases of insurance fraud to let it slide. Well how about gathering up some evidence and reporting it to the appropriate authorities instead of grouping everyone who was there that day and tossing them out like trash.

I agree with you guys 100% on the fire service bit, funny thing is that when I was a tadpole, that's what I wanted to be. I became interested in the emergency medical field during my active duty stint, and I'm so glad that I chose EMS first. I also have the utmost respect for those fire fighters who get down and dirty to get a job done and at the end of the day walks away without the need to grab everyone's attention because of what they do for a living. I do believe the fire service is just as jacked up, if not more jacked up then EMS, especially when it comes to politics, mutual aid, and the food chain.

Another thing, just like you guys is that I cannot stand bull shitters, story tellers, and glory hounds. I know of several and they get the cold shoulder from me. One in particular.....holy shit the stories he spits out. It's to the point that I have zero faith, confidence, or respect for and that will never change and it's changed how I feel about hearing stories/experiences from new people that I meet (It's to the point were I question myself if this person talking to me is a bullshitter). He's earned HERO status more times my heart beats in a day.......in his mind.

I don't like the word hero, I feel that the heroes are the ones who have fallen while preserving life, or are the ones who have actually saved people from situations where they wouldn't be here today and take no credit what so ever. I have 5 "heroes", 4 military and 1 EMS and none of them are alive. They are my role models, along with those who have walked away from a major incident and strive to better themselves and others so that it'll never happen again (or to ensure better outcomes), those are who I try to live up to, not some overpaid and overrated sports star, rock star, or actor, not those whackers....you know the ones with the fancy whacker shirts, clever one liners, gazillion gadgets, and more lights on their POV then on an ambulance or fire truck. The ones that you usually see standing around doing absolutely nothing (or snapping pics with their cell phone or camera) while on a call and yet talk about it like they themselves saved the day. That goes for both fire and EMS folks.

I don't do this job to reek in gloriness or to swim in money and benefits. I do it make a difference in the short amount of time I'm in somebodies life, at least to make them better when I leave them, that goes for the crazies, druggies, and frequent fliers. I don't thrive on balls to the wall type calls and I sure as hell don't to brag or hear someone bragging about watching somebodies livelihood going up in flames (not too many of our vollies who also run fire like me very much). If you weren't on my call, you most likely won't be getting any juicy details from me. If I get hurt and can no longer do this job then so be it, I'm gonna find something else to do then to live on the backs of taxpayers. If I'm hurt to the point that I will be in and out of hospitals and doctors offices and will no longer be able to work and enjoy life.....please......put me out of my misery!

Come to think about it, this guys tone (especially when he goes into Vietnam mode) he sounds like he could be a hero. He must have had all the right "stuff" and fought in a textbook perfect environment.

My military service has left ringing in my ears with diminished hearing, pain in my knees, my eyes are now sensitive to light and wind, and some mild ptsd. I collect no disability, I don't go looking for discounts and freebies, and it makes me uncomfortable when I'm pointed out. What I've experienced will stay with me like it happened yesterday until Alzheimer's or dementia kicks in.

Those who did their time at Ground Zero and can no longer function, thrive, or support their families due to complete disability should definitely get their fair share, those who milked the system under false and grossly exaggerated claims should also get what they deserve....an extended vacation at their local jailhouse where they can think about how much better they have it compared to others.

Sean

[Richard B the EMT]

When Carlos Lillo, my EMS Academy classmate signed up, and probably when Ricardo Quinn did, too, they never expected to have a building fall on them. They are the two Paramedics included in the FDNY 343, along with Father Judge, and the 340 Fire Fighters and Fire Supervisory Personnel.

Mayor Rudy Guliani, and former NJ Governor Christine Whitman were not air quality and safety experts. The people who were supposed to give accurate information as to the air quality for them to parrot to the media either got it wrong, or deliberately lied.

Worker's Compensation was created so that anyone injured while doing their jobs would have some kind of income while recovering from that injury. That covers just about everyone who responded, either us in the Emergency Services sector, the construction workers, the people who distributed sandwiches and soup to everyone working at Ground Zero.

I don't have a good figure to quote as to how many Rescue and Recovery workers were exposed to the dust cloud, and what poisons were in the cloud. All I know is people are dying. I have attended too many funerals, and expect to attend many more.

Even though I was NOT one of the FDNY personnel, fire or EMS "side", to go to the disaster, the department is going to be keeping track of me, medically, just because I was a member of the department.

[Alex Woo]

It was a horrible day. My friends & co-workers died that day. I was at school; nearby. We all heard the boom. School was cancelled & exiting through the courtyard: I can see the WTC Towers on fire. I can smell the smoke. I drove and parked on Bway and Fulton. I was a NYC Paramedic & I felt I had a Duty to Act. I called FDNY Comm and was told Staging was on Church and Fulton. I walked a half a block on Bway; I heard a thundering sound like a speeding locomotive. it lasted for several seconds but it felt like minutes. Everyone stood still. We all looked but didn't move until we heard the loud thud and there was silence. Debris & smoke rapidly engulfed us. It was an unbeatable sandstorm. We ran but couldn't escape the breathe taking soot. It was a Day that would live in Infamy... I miss you Marc Sullins, Mario Santoro, & Keith Fairben....

FYI hours to days to weeks; I worked 16hours a day at NY Downtown; my 89 (at Cross Street Location); was at Ground Zero. I told workers there; whoever I saw, to wear their masks. I gave out N95 to all I could. We ordered boxes to give out at Ground Zero. Many brushed it off. Masks were on but not on the face. I hear but I'm not listening. Dean Tappan show some compassion...

[Richard B the EMT]

Food for thought:

Ground Zero

I note, again, while former NJ Governor Whitman may be a good administrator, she was no scientist.

[Just Plain Ruff]

The bill passed albeit a modified bill. The responders will get their financial assistance.

I do understand the senators reservations on this bill though.

[Richard B the EMT]

Just mentioning, from the video link, I am friends for some years with Paramedic Billy Dahl, and Paramedic Lieutenant Billy Gleason.