Don't Ask, Don't Tell Repealed

[DwayneEMTP]

... Whether it's good, bad, or indifferent to the military, is NOW- while we are still actively fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan- really the best time to repeal this? Is even the potential for such a distraction to our soldiers a good idea?

You know I had this argument about 10 years ago with a friend of mine that had served in Viet Nam. He had served several tours as the commander (?) of an artillery unit. He was vehemently opposed to gays in the military and I just couldn't understand this point of view coming from one of the most kind and compassionate men I've ever know. We truly argued about this for 24hrs straight with nothing more than pee and pizza breaks.

He said that it didn't matter what the facts were in units that were to be placed squarely in harms way, that it only mattered what the perception was. He was confident that a soldier that admitted to being gay would have been killed by his comrades during combat situations. He claimed that during those times of extreme stress, even worse when the stress would continue for weeks or months at a time, that superstitions, urban legend and just plain 'gut feelings' begin to reign supreme as men look for hope and reasons to believe in their indestructibleness despite the ever present evidence to the contrary. He believed that then, and he believes that the feeling is just as valid today, that those perceptions would harm a units ability to perform and survive. Having never been military it's certainly not my place to invalidate his argument.

For the record, I have worked around gay men and women much of my adult life. I've slept in the same rooms, showered in the same rooms when necessary, and have no issues with them in any way. But I did come to believe that my friend had a very valid point. Unfair? Absolutely. But what do we do when unfair comes face to face with reality and mortality? I have no idea.

I want to live in a world where everyone is allowed to rise to the hight of their desires and abilities. But hoping it is so doesn't make it so.

Dwayne

[chbare]

Come on Dwayne, I expect better than this out of you. You make a point based on nothing but an anecdote from a decade ago without providing any compelling evidence to support said point? I have no problem with arguments that go against the majority, but give us something tangible to digest.

Edit: This is nothing personal, but you often set the bar high and demand logical and well thought out arguments. I believe this is the best way to ensure intelligent and productive dialogue.

Take care,

chbare.

Edited December 20, 2010 by chbare

[zippyRN]

Thanks to the internet and smart phones, many soldiers can be posting on facebook or surfing the web and 30 minutes later be in a firefight with the Taliban.

because the CoC does have the cojones to run Op. Minimise ? despite the opsec and persec risks to uncontrolled use of phones with out of theatre IMEIs ....

But these accusations are a typical left wing response- either you agree with our opinion or you are a racist/bigot/homphobe/xenophobe, etc. That is a logical fallacy and a false choice.

the Logical Fallacy is that sexual orientation has the slightest bit of relevance to effectiveness in doing a job. It is those who support baseless discrimination that need to address their issues rather than the standard for the USA ad hominem of calling anyone who isn't somewhere to the right of Attila the Hun a Communist .

At the end of the day the people with the problem about this are those who cannot or will not see beyond arbitrary descriptions and place a lesser value on human life because of these arbitrary descriptions... Plenty of Militaries have abandoned these arbitrary restrictions recognising that banning gays or DADT is;

1. pointless because sexual orientation has no impact on the ability to do a job there's not even the 'provable' physiological factors that can be used to justify sexist or racist policies...

2. a PERSEC risk which increases the risks because of covert behaviour or the threat of blackmail.

[DwayneEMTP]

Come on Dwayne, I expect better than this out of you. You make a point based on nothing but an anecdote from a decade ago without providing any compelling evidence to support said point? I have no problem with arguments that go against the majority, but give us something tangible to digest.

I fail to see where you believe that I've made or attempted to support a point. I have no dog in this fight nor do I have a valid perspective being neither political, gay, nor military. It was not my intent to shore up the anti gay/military point of view but to simply share an enectdote that I found interesting and possibly illuminating in a thread concerning the subject. Unless you believe that calling his argument valid meant taking his argument as my own? That was not my intention but to use the word 'valid' in it's more correct context when applied here, to mean that he presented an argument that I believed carried logical weight.

...Edit: This is nothing personal, but you often set the bar high and demand logical and well thought out arguments. I believe this is the best way to ensure intelligent and productive dialogue.

Take care,

chbare.

Certainly not taken personally and had I presented this as my point of view as opposed to simply interjecting what I considered to be an interesting peripheral "Hmmmmm" then I would welcome a sound thrashing. Maybe your point is simply that my peripheral thoughts and ideas had no place in a fact based discussion? But is there significant data available on this subject to even pretend that it is being debated in a quantifiable arena? Perhaps there is, but if so, I've not seen any presented here. In fact I've not really seen anything more scientific some idiotic gay bashing from Shithead and a bunch of personall feelings and unsuported arguments stating a homosexuals effectiveness as a soldier.

As always my comments are meant with respect. I'm not sure that I'm getting your point, but I'm trying.

Dwayne

[ERDoc]

Since it seems like the issue here is not gays serving in the military but how those who don't like gay people feel about it, there seems like a simple solution. Get rid of DADT. Instead of asking a person trying to get into the military if they are gay, ask them if they are homophobic. If they are homophobic then they are not allowed to serve. Anyone currently in the military who is found to be homophobic will be discharged. We have therefore eliminated the problem of those who feel uncomfortable serving with gays and gays who want to serve are now allowed to do so.

What happened to America being the land of equal opportunity for everyone? They way it is right now, open gay people are not allowed the opportunity to serve in the military. If someone doesn't like gay people they still have to opportunity to serve or they have an opportunity to get out of the situation. Just because someone is gay does not mean that all they think about is having sex. They aren't some crazy sex machines whose prime directive is to have sex with everyone of the same sex. Some people can be so ignorant.

Herbie, as for religious beliefs, everyone is welcome to their religious beliefs but they should not be used to limit someone else's basic human right of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness (as stated in the UN document). There are plenty of religions that teach a woman is the property of a man and, to paraphrase, is only worthy of being barefoot and pregnant. So, by that argument women should not be allowed to serve. Let's face it, women in the military are a distraction anyway. All of the straight soldiers will be so preoccupied with checking out the women that combat effectiveness will suffer. This is obviously a much bigger problem than gays as there are many more straight soldiers than there are gay.

Edited December 20, 2010 by ERDoc

[wrmedic82]

I am not against homosexuals in the military. But I do have concerns on the basis of distraction, and losses of moral due to the distraction. As a general rule I feel what happens in the bedroom should stay in the bedroom and not be brought to the work place whether you be straight or homosexual. On the front lines sexual preferences should not be a issue PERIOD!

Some people do not accept people who are homosexual. I am not saying its right. But we all know the type exists.That is a reality we have to acknowledge. If someone who is a homophobe knows they are depending on someone whom they feel is attracted to them is in a life or death situation, they may not depend on that particular individual or isolate that individual that is homosexual. Again I'm not saying that it is right. But at the end of the day the question has to be asked did it effect the moral of the unit?.

Some people can "get over it" and get passed the individuals sexual preference which is mature, where as some may not and tend to isolate themselves from individuals that do not make them feel comfortable. That of course is problematic when you need a cohesive team for survival.

Those are my thoughts I wish all well.

[Just Plain Ruff]

I was listening to Rush Limbaugh today and he made a point.

What if the soldier is gay and is asked to go on a dangerous mission? Can that soldier claim discrimination because if he wasn't gay he would not have been asked to go on that mission?

Just repeating something thrown out there by Rush

Seriously, are people saying that only straights can shoot straight? Are they saying that if you are gay you are less than a man? (some would argue that) but come on.

I have had several Gay EMS partners and they were excellent caregivers.

I have no problem with one who is gay working with me. As a matter of fact 4 out of the 9 people in my office are gay.

So I see no problem with DADT being repealed.

At least one of Obama's campaign promises came true.

But someone said it best here, Gays in the military is like 100 out of 100 on my priority list that I think we need to focus on. Get the other 99 done and then go after DADT.

For the military on here, thank you for your service. I don't think we've heard from anyone in the military on this particular subject here. If we have I'm sorry I missed it.

The thing is, we don't have to live with the repealing of DADT, the military soldiers do. I'd like to hear what the rank and file have to say.

[Lone Star]

When I was in the military, I was ordered to appear before a Military Court Martial committee because one of the members I served with was accused of being gay.

When you get orders to appear, it's the same as a subpoena; you don't get the choice to just not do it.

To my knowledge, it was never proven whether he was or wasn't gay. His career was destroyed simply on an accusation.

Did it matter to me that he was what some would call 'effeminate'? Not in the least! He was a friend and a fellow Airman....thats all I needed to know.

Did I worry that he was going to make a pass at me, especially in the shower? Not at all. IF he WAS gay, he didn't flaunt it and he damn sure never pushed his 'way of life' on others.

The only issue that I MIGHT have with gays in the military is if someone decides to undergo gender reassignment surgery, especially if they expect the government to pick up the tab. I'm NOT suggesting that this is why the gay community wants to serve... The only reason it was even mentioned is because we know that there ARE elements of society that DO try to abuse the 'system' when they get the opportunity.

It was always my understanding that "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" wasn't a measure to keep gays out of the military, it just limited the straight members from having it thrown in their faces (as in Gay Pride parades and other demonstrations of one's homosexuality). I don't agree with the practice in civillian life either.

If you're gay, I don't care. If you're attracted to members of the same sex....more power to you....there's just no need to make a big production out of letting the whole world know that this is your lifestyle.

This thought process isn't just limited to the gay community. I don't believe that we need some big celebration of the fact that you're into the 'goth lifestyle', BDSM, S&M or whatever else floats your boat...

The straignt community, and all the other 'alternative lifestyles' don't have to make some big hooplah to let the world know that this is their lifestyle, why is it that the gay community feels compelled to do it?

Do I have any issues working, associating or otherwise interacting with members of the gay community? Not in the slightest. I happen to know for FACT that their 'gayness' will not rub off and turn me gay simply because I happen to have friends, coworkers and associates that are.

Congratulations emtpociets, you've just made Archie Bunker look like a saint! But before you start celebrating your accomplishment, may I suggest that you put down the shovel that you're using to dig the hole you're in before you dig so deep that you'll never be able to get out of it.

Please tell us though....who is going to be your next target? Not that I really want to hear whatever drivel you have to spout, I just don't want to be blindsided by it....

[Underdawg3ate1]

Your pretty much spot on LoneStar!

In my 14 years in the Army, I've served with a few gays and lesbians, they were damn good soldiers and they would've taken a bullet for me just as fast as I would for them. They didn't flaunt themselves or their lifestyles.

With everything else going on in the military these days, I'm pretty much sure that this is not going to have as big of an impact as the media is trying to hype it up to be. For most it'll be business as usual.

I'm sure there will be those who will stir crap up. Homosexuals have proven to more more then competent as soldiers. There will always be those who believe that gays don't deserve to live, that blacks and other people of color belong in the cotton fields and that a woman's place is barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen. As bad as it is I don't think ALL of these issues are going away for at least the next several generations. Emtpociets has demonstrated this beautifully!

I have had plenty of homosexual partners who not once pushed their beliefs onto me, none blatantly checked me out and none asked me out on a date. That being said, they are a blast to run with as they see life differently in my opinion.

[Just Plain Ruff]

Congratulations emtpociets, you've just made Archie Bunker look like a saint! But before you start celebrating your accomplishment, may I suggest that you put down the shovel that you're using to dig the hole you're in before you dig so deep that you'll never be able to get out of it.

Please tell us though....who is going to be your next target? Not that I really want to hear whatever drivel you have to spout, I just don't want to be blindsided by it....

NO NO NO NO NO LONE, bad dog, bad dog, You know better than to feed the TROLLS!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now he'll never leave!!!!!!! Go to your corner and sit there for 15 minutes in a time out.

DON'T FEED THE TROLLS

Edited December 20, 2010 by Ruffems