" running through traffic between 21st and broad"

[island emt]

Mobey: Like you I'm not into blowing smoke up a young-uns ass.. I come from a far different generation where corporal punishment was handed out in school and the nuns were to be feared. There were no excuses allowed and if one screwed up , you answered for it. Blunt & to the point.

If they want warm & fuzzy they should get a job changing diapers at a day care!

[Lone Star]

Ok, first of all, I am by no means defending the original poster or condoning his actions. And I am certainly not condoing everyone elses's actions who have turned a simple judgement error into an online bullying forum. All I am saying is that there are better ways to change what was posted and to change the image of EMS...there is no need to attack people.

And second, seriously, who cares if the local colleges don't offer an "associates degree course in 'fryology' or 'fast food preparation'". If that is what someone chooses to do with their life, then it is THEIR profession. Just because you don't see it that way, doesn't mean that it is a bad job...It just means that it is not for you. And if you want to start talking about trying to change the face of EMS that the general public sees, don't even start to frown upon someone who is making an honest living by working as a fry cook...you're just being rude and making EMS personel look like job snobs.

There are two simple courses of action in this situation:

1) you can speak out about the unacceptable behavior or

2) you can keep silent, and by doing so; you silently condone their actions.

Since you've come to the 'rescue' of the original poster by pointing out how 'mean' we're being to them, you have effectively chosen path #2.

Just because someone has chosen to speak out, doesn't mean that they're being 'mean' or 'bullying'. It's pointing out unacceptable behavior in hopes that by doing so, it will change it into acceptable behavior.

As far as being a 'job snob'...there is really no such critter. Just because I pointed out that working at McDonalds requires no real education (not that there IS any real education for that type of position), doesn't mean that I consider it a ‘bad job’, I’m just stating the obvious.

Working in a fast food business is NOT a profession, it is simply a job. In most cases it’s a ‘fill-in job’ until something better comes along. Haven’t you ever noticed that the majority of McDonald’s workers are those that are either very young (17-18) or those that lack sufficient skills and qualifications for better positions in the work force? How many people actually set out on their career path with the intention of retiring from McDonalds, Wendy’s or Burger King? Haven’t you noticed that there is always a large group of ‘new faces’ through those establishments?

We can understand a ‘faux pas of judgment’, but to attempt to defend it as ‘acceptable behavior’ only adds to the original transgression.

I never said that I am "a true professional" so don't start putting words in my mouth...All I said was that those with the wisdom and experience should be sharing it, not slamming everyone else and that no one should be bad mouthing professions that are different from the one that we have chosen for ourselves. I'm done having this argument with you both.

Profession: An occupation, such as law, medicine, or engineering, that requires considerable training and specialized study.

Job: A regular activity performed in exchange for payment

Occupation: An activity that serves as one's regular source of livelihood; a vocation.

Trade: The people working in or associated with a business or industry

Vocation: A regular occupation, especially one for which a person is particularly suited or qualified.

Based on the above definitions, I hardly see how being a fry cook or even Fry Manager qualifies as a ‘profession’ (even if they DID attend “Hamburger University”).

Nate,

So, since Mobey seems to think that I need to actually SHOW him what I am talking about when I speak of a professional way to talk to someone, here it goes.

It is never funny when someone goes around intentionally injuring themselves, especially when it goes to the extent of having to call 911 and resulting in them passing out. You will find that on this site, most people will actually be offended by stories like these because we take an oath to help those in need. And while you and your partner may share the same view of what is funny and what is not, most people here will take these stories in another way and not find them funny at all, and then an argument begins. Telling stories about patients that intentionally injure themselves to the extent that we are called in to help them is frowned upon and thought of as being unprofessional and as encouraging this behavior. And even though I'm sure this is not what you were meaning to portray, that is how some took it, so I would suggest not posting things similar to what you did here. We could all use a laugh every now and then, and I'm sure we have all laughed at patients that we have had that were similar to your story in one way or another, but I would recommend taking a look at what others have posted in this portion of the site before posting another story as to try to not offend anyone. Just a little friendly advice.

Let me break out the tissues! EMS is NOT a profession known for it’s ‘warm fuzzies’or sunshine and belly rubs. It is a tough profession and people who find humor in another’s misery or misfortune is not going to be well received.

[TylerHastings]

Let me break out the tissues! EMS is NOT a profession known for it’s ‘warm fuzzies’or sunshine and belly rubs. It is a tough profession and people who find humor in another’s misery or misfortune is not going to be well received.

Quote of the day right there...I have tried to stay out of this thread after being called a rookie and told that I was bullying but I have to agree with most of what Lone and others have said on this thread EMS is not known for being warm and fuzzy. If you think were being mean well then let me say this....If ya can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen. In know way shape or form have I seen anyone say that working at the local burger shack or sack n suds...(you do know what those are?) was a "bad job" they have all said it just was not a job that lead to very many places...Do you think that the CEO of 7-11 worked his way ALL THE WAY up from the bottom...?

[kndoug1]

There are two simple courses of action in this situation:

1) you can speak out about the unacceptable behavior or

2) you can keep silent, and by doing so; you silently condone their actions.

Since you've come to the 'rescue' of the original poster by pointing out how 'mean' we're being to them, you have effectively chosen path #2.

As far as being a 'job snob'...there is really no such critter. Just because I pointed out that working at McDonalds requires no real education (not that there IS any real education for that type of position), doesn't mean that I consider it a 'bad job', I'm just stating the obvious.

Working in a fast food business is NOT a profession, it is simply a job. In most cases it's a 'fill-in job' until something better comes along. Haven't you ever noticed that the majority of McDonald's workers are those that are either very young (17-18) or those that lack sufficient skills and qualifications for better positions in the work force? How many people actually set out on their career path with the intention of retiring from McDonalds, Wendy's or Burger King? Haven't you noticed that there is always a large group of 'new faces' through those establishments?

We can understand a 'faux pas of judgment', but to attempt to defend it as 'acceptable behavior' only adds to the original transgression.

Profession: An occupation, such as law, medicine, or engineering, that requires considerable training and specialized study.

Job: A regular activity performed in exchange for payment

Occupation: An activity that serves as one's regular source of livelihood; a vocation.

Trade: The people working in or associated with a business or industry

Vocation: A regular occupation, especially one for which a person is particularly suited or qualified.

Based on the above definitions, I hardly see how being a fry cook or even Fry Manager qualifies as a 'profession' (even if they DID attend "Hamburger University").

Let me break out the tissues! EMS is NOT a profession known for it's 'warm fuzzies'or sunshine and belly rubs. It is a tough profession and people who find humor in another's misery or misfortune is not going to be well received.

If you read my response to the OP, you will see that in no way did I condone what he said. But I was able to express my disapproval in a professional, unaccusatory manner. And as for your comment about the fry cook...while you may not have come directly out and said that it is a bad job, the way you referred to the position was clearly meant as an insult. If a fry cook saw how you referred to that position, I can guarantee you they would be offended.

I also think it's funny that you found the need to go look up those definitions. I went to college and took my fair share of English classes, so I don't need a dictionary lesson thank you very much. I don't really care what the dictionary definition of a job or trade or profession is...a profession is something that someone does for a living, same as a job. It is something that they choose to do. If you actually asked a fry cook what their profession is, they would tell you that they are a fry cook...so it doesn't really matter what the dictionary definition is, all that matters is what someone thinks of themselves and what they do for a living. And using a "job", any "job", as an insult speaks very poorly of the person that said it.

And as for EMS not being a profession known for it's "warm fuzzies or sunshine and belly rubs"...hate to tell you but that is EXACTLY what you are paid to do. You are a patient advocate, and whether you like it or not, sometimes that means holding their hand and being the sunshine in their cloudy day. You are there to take care of them and treat them with respect and compassion. We see people at their worst, and sometimes all they need from us is a hand to hold or a shoulder to cry on. When you come across a hyperventilating patient, how do they tell you to first treat that? They tell you to verbally try to calm them down, to coach them. So you sit there and speak kindly to them, breathe with them and try to get them to relax. No concous patient is going to just let you stick a BVM on their face, so we are taught to, yes I'm going to say it, HOLD THIER HAND and coach them to get their breathing under contol. And that's just one example. And, last time I checked, the schools teach 5 core EMS values, Integrity, Compassion, Accountability, Respect, and Empathy, which spell ICARE respectively. So yes, EMS is all about 'warm fuzzies and sunshine' when it comes to your patients. Those values are what EMS is all about, but why does it have to stop at our patients? Why can't we continue to practice those when it comes to our co-workers? It is a tough profession, don't get me wrong, but why do we have to make it harder on each other by attacking someone who made a mistake?

I am not in any way saying that the OP was right in posting what he did. What he posted hit home with me. I have lost people very close to me who have had mental disorders and have done similar things as a means of suicide, so for you to say that by stepping up for him I am condoning his behavior, actually is very offensive. However, just because I do not agree with what he posted, doesn't mean that I should verbally attack him and post insults for the world to see. Attacking someone is NOT the way to get things changed. All it does is put them on the defense, and then they don't listen and nothing changes. Simple as that.

[island emt]

Direct quote from KNDOUG1 in different thread

"I just recently finished EMT school...It was definitely an exciting experience. Just from the limited amount of ride outs I have done and from the people that I have spoken to, EMS sounds like a great career, but I have to say that it wasn't as hands on as I thought it would be. You said that you were not sure where you want to go next but that you have a desire to be hands on with your patients...nursing school will give you more hands on interaction with your patients than working as an EMT or Paramedic, but all of these are great career choices...I spent time doing a hospital rotation and when I compared that to the ride outs on the ambulances, I noticed that in the hospital as a nurse, you get to spend more time with your patients. Where on the ambulance it was 10 or so with them and then you pass them off. So if you are looking for something to give you time with your patients, nursing school may be a better option...but it just depends on what you are really looking for.

Good luck with school and everything!

~Kristina

So in your several weeks/ months experience as an EMT B tell us how many times you've made a difference in peoples lives.

Then in ten , fifteen 25 or 40 years come on back and see if you still believe in the granola crunch life, warm & fuzzy BS that was obviously imbedded in your brain by

a proud member of the fruits & nuts society of California is all sunshine crap that you are lecturing us with.

Once you've dealt with the dregs of society for years , with an occasional sweet little old lady who really needs your compassion and hand holding, let us know how it works for you. In reality you will spend most of your calls trying to figure out which agency needs to take charge of your pt.

The corrections system, the mental health system or the local undertaker.

My guess is you won't last very long based on the thousands of newbies I met over the decades. tough love is sometimes needed.

It's time for you to open your eyes and have a reality check sunshine.

[TylerHastings]

And, last time I checked, the schools teach 5 core EMS values, Integrity, Compassion, Accountability, Respect, and Empathy, which spell ICARE respectively. So yes, EMS is all about 'warm fuzzies and sunshine' when it comes to your patients.

I don't remember being taught those core values all though this rookie did take his class a whole 5 years ago now. Yes we are supposed to have all of those however that is with respect to our PATIENTS and each other but I guarantee you out in the field if you do something to endager the life of someone or you make a wrong statement your partner is going to blast you all the way to hell and back again.

Those values are what EMS is all about, but why does it have to stop at our patients?

The compassion part only goes so far when you make an error of judgement like the OP has done. You may not agree that it was an error in judgement but it was in the opinion of those who have more time in rank than you and in some cases those who have more time in rank than you have even been alive. I just admitted I have been an EMT for a whole 5 years now I still make mistakes as we all do but I listen to the constructive criticsms that I recieve and become better for them. That is what is called Accountability...gee isn't that one of those five value things. See Accountability also means to be liable for ones actions, since you studied English I won't go find display the definitions here but feel free to click on Accountability to see the definition, I feel that as members of this website we are all trying to hold the OP accountable for his actions. Now back to compassion, got sidetracked, yes we as professionals are supposed to have compassion and for the most part we do, however sometimes it just doesn't show as much as it should. With that being said I would like for you to work just 3 years on a busy 911 system dealing with all of the scut then come back and show us all of your compassion. I guarentee you will be at least a little bit more like those of us who have been here a while.

Why can't we continue to practice those when it comes to our co-workers?

We can if they made a mistake however this incidence was not a mistake...this was showing extremely poor judgement.

It is a tough profession, don't get me wrong, but why do we have to make it harder on each other by attacking someone who made a mistake?

If this had been just a simple mistake I suspect that most of the members on this forum who have posted to this thread would in fact be a lot more willing to forgive. However, as I said above the OP showed poor judgement in this case not just simple mistakes. I would strongly recommend that for this individual a ethics class would be in order.

All it does is put them on the defense, and then they don't listen and nothing changes. Simple as that.

If you have noticed the OP has not returned to this thread or for that matter to the website since he (Dude) posted this thread.

So in your several weeks/ months experience as an EMT B tell us how many times you've made a difference in peoples lives.

Then in ten , fifteen 25 or 40 years come on back and see if you still believe in the granola crunch life, warm & fuzzy BS that was obviously imbedded in your brain by

a proud member of the fruits & nuts society of California is all sunshine crap that you are lecturing us with.

Once you've dealt with the dregs of society for years , with an occasional sweet little old lady who really needs your compassion and hand holding, let us know how it works for you. In reality you will spend most of your calls trying to figure out which agency needs to take charge of your pt.

The corrections system, the mental health system or the local undertaker.

My guess is you won't last very long based on the thousands of newbies I met over the decades. tough love is sometimes needed.

It's time for you to open your eyes and have a reality check sunshine.

Kristina if I remember right you are from Sac I won't bet on it but that is what my memory tells me. Go to work for AMR or another company up there and after running for days and days on end come recite your core values to us and tell us that you still believe they should be applied to your partners, all of your partners 100 percent of the time.

Edited twice for spelling and grammar

Edited January 16, 2011 by TylerHastings

[Lone Star]

If you read my response to the OP, you will see that in no way did I condone what he said. But I was able to express my disapproval in a professional, unaccusatory manner. And as for your comment about the fry cook...while you may not have come directly out and said that it is a bad job, the way you referred to the position was clearly meant as an insult. If a fry cook saw how you referred to that position, I can guarantee you they would be offended.

I have read and reread this post and cannot figure out how it can be considered ‘unprofessional’ or even accusatory. Is it because I chose to use more direct language, or that I didn’t use the same ‘soft tone’ that you did?

I also think it's funny that you found the need to go look up those definitions. I went to college and took my fair share of English classes, so I don't need a dictionary lesson thank you very much. I don't really care what the dictionary definition of a job or trade or profession is...a profession is something that someone does for a living, same as a job. It is something that they choose to do. If you actually asked a fry cook what their profession is, they would tell you that they are a fry cook...so it doesn't really matter what the dictionary definition is, all that matters is what someone thinks of themselves and what they do for a living. And using a "job", any "job", as an insult speaks very poorly of the person that said it.

I posted those definitions because its clear that you have confused the definitions, and I felt it was appropriate to define the terms and point out that while they can be applied to employment, they are not as interchangeable as you think they are.

Just because someone considers their job a ‘profession’ doesn’t make it one. I know some people that are quite comfortable thinking that their job makes them more important than God Himself. Does that make it true?

Since you seem to place so little significance on the definition of the words, should I also presume that you also take the same glib approach to the definitions/descriptions found in the DSM IV?

And as for EMS not being a profession known for it's "warm fuzzies or sunshine and belly rubs"...hate to tell you but that is EXACTLY what you are paid to do. You are a patient advocate, and whether you like it or not, sometimes that means holding their hand and being the sunshine in their cloudy day. You are there to take care of them and treat them with respect and compassion. We see people at their worst, and sometimes all they need from us is a hand to hold or a shoulder to cry on. When you come across a hyperventilating patient, how do they tell you to first treat that? They tell you to verbally try to calm them down, to coach them. So you sit there and speak kindly to them, breathe with them and try to get them to relax. No concous patient is going to just let you stick a BVM on their face, so we are taught to, yes I'm going to say it, HOLD THIER HAND and coach them to get their breathing under contol. And that's just one example. And, last time I checked, the schools teach 5 core EMS values, Integrity, Compassion, Accountability, Respect, and Empathy, which spell ICARE respectively. So yes, EMS is all about 'warm fuzzies and sunshine' when it comes to your patients. Those values are what EMS is all about, but why does it have to stop at our patients? Why can't we continue to practice those when it comes to our co-workers? It is a tough profession, don't get me wrong, but why do we have to make it harder on each other by attacking someone who made a mistake?

This isn’t about patient advocacy. I noticed that you’ve mentioned the ‘core values’ of EMS. It’s apparent that the original posters stories have violated all of them. Because we have chosen to point out the errors of his ways, doesn’t necessarily mean that we’re being ‘mean’ or ‘bullying them’. Furthermore, just because we have chosen a different path to point out these errors, doesn’t necessarily mean that we’re wrong in the way we did it.

I am not in any way saying that the OP was right in posting what he did. What he posted hit home with me. I have lost people very close to me who have had mental disorders and have done similar things as a means of suicide, so for you to say that by stepping up for him I am condoning his behavior, actually is very offensive. However, just because I do not agree with what he posted, doesn't mean that I should verbally attack him and post insults for the world to see. Attacking someone is NOT the way to get things changed. All it does is put them on the defense, and then they don't listen and nothing changes. Simple as that.

Since you’ve decided in your own mind that because I haven’t taken the same approach to dealing with the issues of the original poster’s comments, that I’m wrong, a bully, and just a downright ‘mean person’ who is ‘verbally attacking’ him, how is it that your constant berating me (and anyone else who disagrees with you) any different than what you’re accusing us of?

[kndoug1]

So in your several weeks/ months experience as an EMT B tell us how many times you've made a difference in peoples lives.

Then in ten , fifteen 25 or 40 years come on back and see if you still believe in the granola crunch life, warm & fuzzy BS that was obviously imbedded in your brain by

a proud member of the fruits & nuts society of California is all sunshine crap that you are lecturing us with.

Once you've dealt with the dregs of society for years , with an occasional sweet little old lady who really needs your compassion and hand holding, let us know how it works for you. In reality you will spend most of your calls trying to figure out which agency needs to take charge of your pt.

The corrections system, the mental health system or the local undertaker.

My guess is you won't last very long based on the thousands of newbies I met over the decades. tough love is sometimes needed.

It's time for you to open your eyes and have a reality check sunshine.

[Chief1C]

I am king of sarcastic humor as a defense to stress.. But even I wouldn't laugh at this, it goes beyond Gallows Humor, and falls just before being a sick bastard. Mental illness is a disease, which may be able to be treated. It sickens me that you'd admit to laughing at the mentally ill. Whether or not you meant it that way, that's how I perceived your demeanor, after reading the post. Intent and Impact is a key term, when deciding what to share from the depths of your mind.

[Happiness]

Well has anyone notice the OP hasnt returned any responses gee wonder why. I am also surprised that Dwayne and Squint haven't jumped on this one, and if they do KN you will see what true Experinced EMS professionalism is all about. Most of us have been in this profession for 20+ years myself for 15 years. I have seen stupid at its best but let me tell you, a mentaly ill person banging their head until they knock themselve out, while doing naked reverse snow angels, and then the next comment about a flashlight shoved up someones ass IS NOT FUNNY. The OP got what he deserved from the others in this forum. Caring for Mentally ill people is skill that is learned from experince and the Warm and Fuzzy approch with most will just get you injured or killed.

I for one have made the wrong post in these forums and I got the rath of the group and YES I learned my lesson. Now if the OP came back and said Hey your right this was in bad taste then the whole thing would have had a different tone.

KN here is a little bit of friendly advise, Come back here when you realize that your little bit of schooling in the Warm and Fuzzy AKA ICARE bites you in the ass and that the people here have more experince than you will get in your career because you will be injured or killed with your attitude and learn from this forum. When you have had your pt try to punch the crap out of you because you took their high away, and you were to busy holding their hand instead of thinking ahead and having them restrained. When you have a severe head injury that tries to beat the crap out of you because you were to busy saying sweetnothings and not realizing that the pressure in their head is causeing the violent behaviour and last but not least when that young person is so strung out on drugs, and you forgot to do a good RBS and find the knife in their pocket because you were initiallizing ICARE they try to stab you. So you really should take the time to read some of these experienced people older posts and realize that in the EMS proffession is not full of Patients who really give a crap about your warm and fuzzy attitude. The old guys here have seen it all, they will share their experinces, some are crass and blunt but they have earned it.

And to the OP this was really in bad taste, and there was nothing funny about either of your posts, I think Troll is a very good discription of you.

Tyler we have seen you grow from a teenage wacker to someone who now has something mature to contribute in the forums.

Happiness