unions?

[HERBIE1]

Over the last few years, there has been a shift in our employment paradigm. Unions came into being because of unscrupulous bosses who took advantage of their workers. Since those days, tons of state and federal regulations and groups have been established to protect the rights of workers, make sure the work place is safe, and that people are paid a fair wage. Minimum wage, OSHA, FSLA, EEOC, etc all protect the worker now.

I honestly think that in many places. unions are seeing a decline not only in popularity, but in relevance.

As was noted, one of the major reasons for the collapse of GM was the untenable demands that legacy costs placed on the company. In a strong economy, GM could cover those costs, but when things went south, things like obligations to retirees bankrupted the firm. If anyone is familiar with some of the UAW's more outrageous perks,- like paying employees NOT to work, it's not unreasonable to see why the company could not ride out the lousy economy. Are there horrible bosses? Of course. Always will be- even in union shops.

As I mentioned earlier, I honestly think that many of the unions- especially those that represent unskilled workers- do more harm than good for their members. In fact, I think in those cases, the unions benefit the employer more than the worker. Because the workers are unskilled, they make little more than minimum wage, yet are still required to pay union dues.

Collective bargaining agreements are no longer the iron clad contracts they used to be- just ask the pilots, the UAW, and many other unions who have seen their contracts opened up and decimated. There is also a perception- although inaccurate- that most public sector contracts are lucrative. Yes, many of the higher paid members do have some incredible benefits and pensions, but the rank and file rarely match up to those. We'll see what happens, but I think unions are under attack- even by the Democrats- and how this will shake out remains to be seen.

[MontvilleFire39]

Union are a very mixed bag and the pros and cons must be carefuly considered.

I have worked for a union private provider represented by the IAEP (Intl. Assoc. of EMTs& Paramedics) and currently for for a fire department represented by the IAFF.

The private service I worked for was in its infancy both with being a union shop and being represented by the IAEP. That is a huge factor to understand as a union will take a significant period of time as condtions won't improve over night and will take several contract periods to really improve conditions. We also were a fairly small local with a small budget which forces you to be selective in which you pursue. The IAEP itself is a solid orginization and intends well in its honest effort to assist its locals. That being said they are a fairly small group therfore there resources are limited. You will be assigned a regional represenative who will be your point of contact for assistance. The regional rep who worked with our local was good but the timliness wil vary as they are spread thin. The IAEP will assist you in organizing and ratifying a contract. While the contract I worked under din't procide massive changes, it provided a minimum standard. It kept management from making sweeping changes on the fly and prevented management harrasment. It also provided a means for resolution in the event of the forementioned events. The IAEP also offers some union discounts, scholarship funds, and such.

I currently work for an IAFF represented fire department. (Lets keep the opionions of fire based ems and the IAFF out of this discussion) The IAFF is simply put a very powerful labor union. There political action fund is one of the largest in the nation and their resources at the international level are tremendous. We are a very large local (2600ish members) which gives a large budget to work with. Because of this we can more aggresively purse issues that arise and take them further. This budget also allows us to have our 3 principal officers work full time at the union hall versus having your officers working for the union "on the side". Representing the membership is their full time job. We also have an attorney on retainer and provide him with enough work to be very dedicated to our local. The IAFF has enabled to negotiate a very generous but not perfect memorandum of understanding with good pay and solid benefits.

If you go forward with your decision to begin a union the selection of who to organize under is eesential. I personally am not a fan of the "catch all" unions such as the IBT. I prefer a union that is dedicated to your profession entirely and not split amongst multiple. I don't believe a trade union fully understands the issues of fire or ems providers. I would look at the IAEP and talk with them. Something to be relaized is that the IAFF has organized several EMS only organizations but firefighters are their primary focus.

A major consideration is the labor status of your state. A labor state makes for a much stronger union and the employer must recognize your union as long as it is legally organized. In a right to work state they don;t have to deal with you whatsoever.

Understand that if you go union you are legally required to provide representation to ALL dues paying members regardless of your personall opinions. There have been several lawsuits filed against union locals who did not provide equitable representation. This means that you must allow a good standing member the process they are entitled to even if you disagree with their actions pursuant to your defined grievance process. If a member gets popped for a DUI; guess what you must represent them. this doesn't sit well with many folks. Also keep in mind that past precedent is a huge factor in settling grievances which means that you sometimes must defend questionable actions for future benefit; it can be a tough pill to swallow at times.

Another manjor factor is local involvment. If your membership won't be actively involved your union will be weak. The union is controlled by the membership and no the officers.

If you have any further questions don't hesitate to contact me.

Edited January 24, 2011 by MontvilleFire39

[tniuqs]

Thats why one should join a union?? To have thugs and enforcers out breaking kneecaps ????

In this country unions protect the morons and penalize the quality employees, they lock you in to a set wage no matter how good or bad a provider you might be.

A CBA does make it harder for a supervisor to harass an individual employee, but if you even think about stepping outside the rules you will receive written reprimands and these will be used against you in successive incidents. Unions protect the whiners and slackers that learn how to use the system.

Ok Mr Ms anti union in entire concept ... do you wish to compare paychecks ?

[JPINFV]

Ok Mr Ms anti union in entire concept ... do you wish to compare paychecks ?

Compare paychecks? Sure, I'll be happy to compare the paycheck for what a non-union job in my field compared to a union job in your field.

[MontvilleFire39]

To all the union haters, slap down the pay slips and talk about the benefits;

I pull down $54,600 base salary along with $2300 in holiday money, roughly a grand or two in FLSA money, and 3$ job incentive bonus. On top of that very liveable salary I participate in a 25 year pension plan, am offered a deffered comp 403b accounty, and recieve top notch health insurance. I am allowed such perks as unlimited shift swap / sub time, 3 thirteen day vacations a year and recieve 24 hours of pay or comp time every 3 months that I don't call in sick. Lets just say the union dues are worth it...

[tniuqs]

Compare paychecks? Sure, I'll be happy to compare the paycheck for what a non-union job in my field compared to a union job in your field.

Something tells me that if I posted any number that you would not believe me anyway, rest assured I make more than your union and non union in the USA, I live and work in Alberta Canada ... like the Flag in my avatar and also in British Columbia and NWT.

This would be like comparing apples to road apples.

I work non-union jobs in Industry (providing services to the union and non union trades) and Union HSAA jobs in the "public" sector in the past primarily in the Air Environment. I can say emphatically and without any hesitation that the unions very positively affected the Industrial non union wage.

Another point would be with the unions as in BC and major EMS services in large communities AB have a layer of job protection, it works well for a resident but against a non resident. Heck should we not have some protection in place to prevent "outsourcing" or import immigrates that have 1/2 the education and will undercut us and live 13 in a 3 bedroom home ? Any private contractor would just love to do this .

Let put it this way, if you ever get up this way to visit the great white north, I will by drinks and wings.

[JPINFV]

Something tells me that if I posted any number that you would not believe me anyway, rest assured I make more than your union and non union in the USA, I live and work in Alberta Canada ... like the Flag in my avatar and also in British Columbia and NWT.

Paramedics in Canada make more than physicians?

I work non-union jobs in Industry (providing services to the union and non union trades) and Union HSAA jobs in the "public" sector in the past primarily in the Air Environment. I can say emphatically and without any hesitation that the unions very positively affected the Industrial non union wage.

However, how much do those workers make after the unions get done destroying the companies from the inside out? I'd rather make slightly less an hour for a stable job than make slightly more, but be out of work when the company folds.

Another point would be with the unions as in BC and major EMS services in large communities AB have a layer of job protection, it works well for a resident but against a non resident. Heck should we not have some protection in place to prevent "outsourcing" or import immigrates that have 1/2 the education and will undercut us and live 13 in a 3 bedroom home ? Any private contractor would just love to do this .

Tariffs and the like have a strange way of biting countries in the butt. It's sort of a win the battle, lose the war issue.

[NYCEMS9115]

Ok all; let's go to the bathroom and compare penis sizes. Does it matter who makes more? No matter how much you make; there's always someone who makes more. I think we're venturing well off the topic. All the best...

[tniuqs]

Ok all; let's go to the bathroom and compare penis sizes. Does it matter who makes more? No matter how much you make; there's always someone who makes more. I think we're venturing well off the topic. All the best...

Damn:

I would loose in that area ... I am hung like a budgie.

I don't like to disagree, its not in my nature <insert cough> but an extreme stereotypical position on such a topic of and assuming that unions destroy companies is beyond the absurd, organisation of labour is essential to promoting any trade or profession.

I don't know about your much RN affiliations/ union/ associations in the USA, but they have made huge steps in Canada and are far closer to what EMS really does, that of HEALTH care.

Very curiously that "we" in EMS are of a mindset always reverting and comparing to IAFF, this is public safety as in police / LEO as if they do not have well attended unions / associations with bargaining rights.

cheers

[tniuqs]

Paramedics in Canada make more than physicians?

However, how much do those workers make after the unions get done destroying the companies from the inside out? I'd rather make slightly less an hour for a stable job than make slightly more, but be out of work when the company folds.

Tariffs and the like have a strange way of biting countries in the butt. It's sort of a win the battle, lose the war issue.