Do You Have A Duty To Report ?

[paramedicmike]

Okay.. I will agree with you. For this scenario I will change my answer to no. Now in real life where information is not clearly layed out in scenario format I will say yes. If life was perfect, and all was swell our dispatchs' would sound like "Medic 1 due to respond to the summer camp for 15 y/o female who knowingly conscented to sex with a male of the same age, she is now having second feelings" When do you hear a dispatch like that? If that female, or male, I dont care who it is, says they were rapped I take their word for it. Like you said in your last post we are not the cops we dont have to investigate drugs. Well you are right we are not the cops...nor lawyers we do not have the right to investigate or charge with rape. We are Mandated reporters not mandated investigators. Rape is rape, Im not a lawyer I dont care what the law says "How old one has to be to commit rape".. if someone says they were raped I will further that information on to the AHJ.

Let them figure it out, Im sure you will regret ignoring a cry for help and then possibly loose a license over it?

Now going to the other side... Maybe i am misreading the scenario. Maybe the female's chief complaint to the nurse was her having "second feelings about entering into sex" If thats the case I would document and advise the nurse and or female to talk to someone about it. But if she even so much as says or lips the word rape, force, or that she said no... thats getting reported

I think you're misreading it. Nobody here is arguing that rape should not be reported. The discussion, as it pertains to this thread, is largely moral and academic. In the case of the kids, no crime has been committed. The moral outrage as expressed by the OP seems to entertain the thought that we as EMS providers are somehow responsible for everything everyone does.

Now, if you were to start throwing in age differences *then* there may be a discussion regarding statutory rape even if both were consenting members. And then, if the nurse on scene had any brains about him/her, there would already be police on the way. Otherwise, there's nothing here.

With regards to the drugs on scene question, just how are you going to handle this? Say, for the sake of discussion, the cops are summoned. Are you going to wait on scene for them to arrive potentially endangering the life and well being of the patient? If the answer is no you're not waiting then the cops can't enter the residence without a warrant and the word of a medic is insufficient grounds on which to obtain a warrant. This is of no benefit to anyone and a huge waste of time to the cops. If you answer yes you're going to wait you're potentially endangering the life and well being of your patient. If you answer yes you're waiting you're effectively judging your patient for engaging in activities with which you disagree. This ultimately makes you 1) unprofessional and 2) a lousy EMS provider.

Let's take this a step further. We see people break the law every day. Traffic violations are infractions of the law. Do you report every single traffic infraction to the police? How about jaywalkers? How about loiterers? How about trespassers? Do you turn your partner in for speeding in the ambulance?

If you do it for one you do it for all. And we, nor the police, have the capacity to handle all of that.

ETA: I'm curious just how many different spellings of the word "consensual" can be found in this discussion. And people are rapping about something? I never was much of a poet.

Edited February 27, 2011 by paramedicmike

[Fireguy181]

I think you're misreading it. Nobody here is arguing that rape should not be reported. The discussion, as it pertains to this thread, is largely moral and academic. In the case of the kids, no crime has been committed. The moral outrage as expressed by the OP seems to entertain the thought that we as EMS providers are somehow responsible for everything everyone does.

Now, if you were to start throwing in age differences *then* there may be a discussion regarding statutory rape even if both were consenting members. And then, if the nurse on scene had any brains about him/her, there would already be police on the way. Otherwise, there's nothing here.

With regards to the drugs on scene question, just how are you going to handle this? Say, for the sake of discussion, the cops are summoned. Are you going to wait on scene for them to arrive potentially endangering the life and well being of the patient? If the answer is no you're not waiting then the cops can't enter the residence without a warrant and the word of a medic is insufficient grounds on which to obtain a warrant. This is of no benefit to anyone and a huge waste of time to the cops. If you answer yes you're going to wait you're potentially endangering the life and well being of your patient. If you answer yes you're waiting you're effectively judging your patient for engaging in activities with which you disagree. This ultimately makes you 1) unprofessional and 2) a lousy EMS provider.

Let's take this a step further. We see people break the law every day. Traffic violations are infractions of the law. Do you report every single traffic infraction to the police? How about jaywalkers? How about loiterers? How about trespassers? Do you turn your partner in for speeding in the ambulance?

If you do it for one you do it for all. And we, nor the police, have the capacity to handle all of that.

ETA: I'm curious just how many different spellings of the word "consensual" can be found in this discussion. And people are rapping about something? I never was much of a poet.

Perhaps I may have misread the scenario. I guess I am not seeing what the chief complaint here really is? I think if the girl is "upset" she had sex and needs comforting, I think the camp nurse is more than substantial to do that. The way I am taking this is that it is an "evaluation" like many will often be called to after a suspected case, or cry of rape. And we all know children will withdraw and are reluctant to speak the facts right when we walk in the door. I guess a good reason to always watch for body language of a child, since it can speak a million words.

As far as the illegal drugs go, if there is no officer on scene, and nobody in direct harm of discovery of the drugs, it’s not our problem.

And no need to point out my spelling errors. I am not proof reading my posts, although I can start if you would like. I see spelling errors and grammatical errors in everybody’s post, including yours.

[usalsfyre]

To answer questions posted: The nurse may or may not report, she says she will, but obviously it will create all kinds of problems if she does. Do we not have an obligation to the child ? She is not old enough to realize the risk she is taking. What if 6 weeks later she has an STD or is pregnant ? Scenario 2, no cop on scene, called in as chest pain. Do you call one ?

1. Nope. Not a reportable incident. 15 is hardly a child in this case (yes as a matter of fact I do have kids)If at 15 years old she is not aware of the consequences of having unprotected sex then her parents have quite honestly failed her. If you were truly concerned about the "duty to the child" you would include the male participant, however this seems to be about the morality of a boyfriend "taking advantage of" a young lady. It's not my job to impose any ideas I have about morality on others.

2. Assuming nothing other than an illicit substance laying on a table, why would you even consider it?

Medical care people, not "public safety".

Perhaps I may have misread the scenario. I guess I am not seeing what the chief complaint here really is? I think if the girl is "upset" she had sex and needs comforting, I think the camp nurse is more than substantial to do that. The way I am taking this is that it is an "evaluation" like many will often be called to after a suspected case, or cry of rape. And we all know children will withdraw and are reluctant to speak the facts right when we walk in the door. I guess a good reason to always watch for body language of a child, since it can speak a million words.

If there's a report of rape, it's a different matter entirely. The nurse should tell you about that. Unless that's the case, it's not required to report it. Edited February 28, 2011 by usalsfyre

[Bieber]

As far as the "to report or not to report" goes, I humbly offer...

When in doubt, whip 'em out.

[Richard B the EMT]

Re the 2 underage sexual partners: When "Daddy" finds out the apple of his eye has been "violated", he'll probably go after any and all parties who knew about it, and didn't tell him in a timely manner. I am old enough to remember actual "shotgun weddings," from my childhood.

I think nowadays, they call it "Friends with benefits"?

As for the reporting of "recreational pharmaceuticals" on the scene of your patient? A tale I heard, which happened somewhere in NYC, a member of the EMS called in for assistance for self, due to a bad "trip" on the illicit meds. The responding crew had a senior EMT, who actually had, in the past, partnered with the sick EMT, and one only days out of the academy.

One, the newjack, who knew the sick EMT as another EMT from the station all 3 worked from, reported the exact wording of what type drug or drugs the sick EMT indicated had been taken, instead of just saying "sick from meds" on the call report.

Two, the ambulance senior tech didn't have newjack rewrite the call report without the damning wording, or simply write up a new one omitting the same.

Three, on reviewing the call report, the supervisor of all 3 of them read it, and blew the whistle on the sick EMT, without asking if the sick EMT could use the employee assistance program to get into a department sponsored rehab program. The sick EMT was subsequently fired.

For reasons of some semblance of privacy for all involved, I have not indicated the geographic area of New York City, the age, sex, or ethnic backgrounds of any of the 4 involved.

If the sick EMT had asked for the assistance getting into the rehab program, that EMT might have not been fired, and supposedly would not have had entered any bad records on the EMT's employment records. The senior EMT was given a few months silent treatment by others at the station, backed by the union for the bad handling of the event, and the newjack became a good, hard working, line EMT.

I admit the hedging of the report borders on illegal activities, but it could have given an otherwise good person the chance to redeem their standing. I also don't know what I would have done, were I on the responding ambulance.

[TylerHastings]

I don't want to threadjack here crotchity but...If we are going to report consensual sex between two minors are we going to report consensual sex between a minor and a adult....for example in CA if one half is 18 and the other half is 17 then the 18 y/o is guilty of statutory rape...even though it was consensual....is it truly a crime if both parties are within a reasonable age of each other?

[crotchitymedic1986]

Unfortunately Tyler, in your description, you admit you know it is a crime (regardless of whether you agree with it or not), therefore you may have a duty to report. You do not know the children involved, the law is the law. Posession of marijuana is a crime in most states, you may not agree with it, but it is the law.

[usalsfyre]

Unfortunately Tyler, in your description, you admit you know it is a crime (regardless of whether you agree with it or not), therefore you may have a duty to report. You do not know the children involved, the law is the law. Posession of marijuana is a crime in most states, you may not agree with it, but it is the law.

Most states have VERY narrowly defined required reporting requirements. It's not your duty to report every crime.

[DwayneEMTP]

I am a little surprised that in this day and age we're still assuming that the boy somehow molested the girl. Maybe she was tearfully reporting to the nurse that she felt bad for raping the boy? I know what the statistics say, but, maybe you see my point.

The only victim as the scenario is played out is perhaps the innocence of one or both of the kids that got laid. There is no crime here, at least not any way that I can see. So no reporting from me unless I see that she's been victimized in some way. I am there to be a patient advocate, not to teach youngsters that when they need help that I'm the wrong person to call as I'm going to take their personal stuff to mom and dad.

With the supposed drugs? Same answer. The soul of EMS is patient advocacy. I am there to care for the man with chest pain, the legal status of the shit on his coffee table holds no interest for me as long as there are no minors in the environment. We are not police, we are not spies, we are medical care providers. I think that the opposite of what was posited in the OP should be true. If you call the police and report the cocaine you should lose your right to practice as you've shown that ethically, and possibly morally, you are not mature enough to protect your patients.

Dwayne

[Just Plain Ruff]

For those of you who are saying no crime occurred, I'll bet the District Attorney in that particular jurisdiction would disagree with you if the kids were under the age of consent.

I do remember a young man who was 18 who had sex with his 17 year old girlfriend. he was charged with statutory rape and spent several years of his life in prison. So yes it does matter.