paramedicmike Posted February 27, 2011 Posted February 27, 2011 1. You respond to band camp, to a 15 year old female who recently had sex with a boy of the same age. It was concentual sex, but something went wrong during or afterwards that scared her and made her report to the camp nurse (no reason to get graphic or perverted here, you pick your own reason). In your state, the age of consent is some age above 16, which she is not, so a crime has been committed. The camp nurse signs your refusal paperwork and you go back in service. Do you have an obligation to report this crime to the officials ? Do you have an obligation to notify the parents ? No. No crime has been committed. I'm not a lawyer but some brief research indicates that in the US it's only a crime if one of the participants is over the age of consent while the other is under. In many places, there are exemptions if the two participants are within a certain number of years age-wise. But if both are under the age of consent and are both willing participants there is no crime and therefore no reporting responsibility. 2. You have an adult male who develops chest pain after using cocaine, you see the cocaine in his home. Do you have an obligation to let the police know that illegal drugs are in this home ? Absolutely not. While we may have a suspicion that the material in question is, in fact, illicit or illegal drugs, we can't know for sure. We're not drug experts. We have no testing equipment. We have no authority in our capacity as EMS providers to do anything but provide care for the person in question. Would a casual word to an officer along the lines of, "Hey... you may want to keep an eye on that place..." be appropriate? Perhaps. Mandatory? Nope. Not a chance.
Fireguy181 Posted February 27, 2011 Posted February 27, 2011 No. No crime has been committed. I'm not a lawyer but some brief research indicates that in the US it's only a crime if one of the participants is over the age of consent while the other is under. In many places, there are exemptions if the two participants are within a certain number of years age-wise. But if both are under the age of consent and are both willing participants there is no crime and therefore no reporting responsibility. Absolutely not. While we may have a suspicion that the material in question is, in fact, illicit or illegal drugs, we can't know for sure. We're not drug experts. We have no testing equipment. We have no authority in our capacity as EMS providers to do anything but provide care for the person in question. Would a casual word to an officer along the lines of, "Hey... you may want to keep an eye on that place..." be appropriate? Perhaps. Mandatory? Nope. Not a chance. I choose to highlight these two phrases because they seem to go hand in hand. You are certainly right we are not drug experts.. nor lawyers. I believe that doesnt give us the right to interpret the law. Yea... it may not be a book definition of "rape" But we all know a 15 y/o male can still certainly have his way, forcefully, with a 15 y/o female. This is a scenario too, there is going to be no way of knowing on scene that the female conscented to sex. In my opinion even if she says it happend it is up to us to relay the information onto the AHJ to investigate an turn it over to the court for interpretation. Although while EMT's are debating this remember camp counselors and nurses are also mandated reporters.. what does the camp nurse think? Sorry devils advocate
Lone Star Posted February 27, 2011 Posted February 27, 2011 The more I think about I'm wondering in WHAT jurisdiction consensual sex between two minors is a crime and how officials think it's in any way enforceable.... As the OP stated, she is still under the 'age of consent' which means no matter how many times she says 'yes', she's not old enough to give it any validity. Just because she said 'yes' (with her being under the age of consent), does NOT free you from criminal liability.
Eydawn Posted February 27, 2011 Posted February 27, 2011 In response to Lone... Scenario 1: The male participant is also underage, and therefore unable to give legal consent. So they both failed to give legal consent. Does that mean they both raped each other? *scratching head* Sounds like there's no actual crime here other than underage sex between two minors under the age of consent... and it sounds like there's a no-fault issue here so there's no potential prosecutable issue... I would be contacting *local* legal advice on whether or not it needed to be reported. Better to take an extra few hours to figure things out than to do the wrong thing. In response to others... Scenario 2: Are the cops on scene with you? If so, pointing out something you may not be sure of could be very appropriate. If they're not on scene with you, and you have no need for them in order to facilitate your care, then there's no reason to call them. You're not legally bound to report what happened, at least in my neck of the woods. As a matter of fact, I seem to remember being taught that part of my phrasing for asking about illicit drug use could be worded as "I'm not a cop, and I'm not going to tell the cops, but I need to know because this may be contributing to your current acute health crisis" or some variation thereof. If there were mandatory reporting, this would be a really unethical tactic, as I would be lying to the patient to get health information and then turning around and doing exactly what I said I wasn't going to do... Wendy CO EMT-B
Bieber Posted February 27, 2011 Posted February 27, 2011 If you know for a fact that a crime has been committed, do you have to report it to the police in your state ? Yes. If you do not report it, could your license/certification be pulled ? Don't know, and I'm not willing to find out. Could you be held legally liable in a lawsuit if you do not report it ? I believe so. But seeing as I'm not a lawyer or cop, I wouldn't write it as though a crime had been committed. I would just document what I saw, the bare facts, and let someone else decide if a crime has been committed or not. Here are some scenarios: 1. You respond to band camp, to a 15 year old female who recently had sex with a boy of the same age. It was concentual sex, but something went wrong during or afterwards that scared her and made her report to the camp nurse (no reason to get graphic or perverted here, you pick your own reason). In your state, the age of consent is some age above 16, which she is not, so a crime has been committed. The camp nurse signs your refusal paperwork and you go back in service. Do you have an obligation to report this crime to the officials ? Do you have an obligation to notify the parents ? I definitely have an obligation to report it to the police. Though I believe in our neck of the woods we generally just advise the hospital and they get law enforcement involved. As far as the parents, I would answer whatever questions they had for me--pure facts. "This is what was said, this is what we found..." etc. 2. You have an adult male who develops chest pain after using cocaine, you see the cocaine in his home. Do you have an obligation to let the police know that illegal drugs are in this home ? This is kind of tricky, isn't it? On one hand, drug possession is a crime, on the other, drug addiction is a disease. I'm really not sure what the county policy is on this. Personally, I'm not sure if getting the guy arrested is going to solve the underlying addiction--though I come to doubt more and more that there's a very good chance that anything will solve it.
paramedicmike Posted February 27, 2011 Posted February 27, 2011 I choose to highlight these two phrases because they seem to go hand in hand. You are certainly right we are not drug experts.. nor lawyers. I believe that doesnt give us the right to interpret the law. Yea... it may not be a book definition of "rape" But we all know a 15 y/o male can still certainly have his way, forcefully, with a 15 y/o female. This is a scenario too, there is going to be no way of knowing on scene that the female conscented to sex. In my opinion even if she says it happend it is up to us to relay the information onto the AHJ to investigate an turn it over to the court for interpretation. Although while EMT's are debating this remember camp counselors and nurses are also mandated reporters.. what does the camp nurse think? Sorry devils advocate Nice way to ignore the scenario as it was presented. So you're going to assume that just because a 15 year old boy *can* force himself on a 15 year old girl that that's what happened? Even though the scenario is a case of consensual contact? Do you routinely ignore information when you're on a call because someone *may* have been capable of doing something illegal or untoward or damaging to others? Are you going to turn in every under age patient who admits to you they're having sex? After all, the individual in question *could* have been raped, too. Following your logic would dictate that the answer would be yes. Let's use some common sense here.
HERBIE1 Posted February 27, 2011 Posted February 27, 2011 Not our job to worry about the underage sex. Are we mandated to report it? No, not unless it's an abuse, but if this was consensual sex, I'd mention it to the hospital if pertinent, but are we obligated to "report" every single law we see broken? As for drugs: Real life- I'll never forget the first time I found crack cocaine on a patient. I showed the cop and he couldn't have been less interested, Unless it was a piece the size of grapefruit, it simply was not worth their time, effort, or paperwork. Kinda deflated my ego- I thought I was being a junior cop and scored a huge win for the good guys. LOL I will say that if we have a patient who exhibits an altered mentation or is injured, I WILL document and related to the ER that I saw drugs and/or paraphernalia on the scene, especially if the patient denies drug use. In that case, the issue of drug use is directly related to the care they may or may not receive from us or the ER. Drug users and especially dealers- are wary of admitting anything to us. Although we are not LEO's, we are authority figures and they assume admitting this will lead to their arrest. Even when we KNOW a person has been using drugs, even when we say- we are not the cops, this is privileged information- they simply do not want to be honest with us.
crotchitymedic1986 Posted February 27, 2011 Author Posted February 27, 2011 To answer questions posted: The nurse may or may not report, she says she will, but obviously it will create all kinds of problems if she does. Do we not have an obligation to the child ? She is not old enough to realize the risk she is taking. What if 6 weeks later she has an STD or is pregnant ? Scenario 2, no cop on scene, called in as chest pain. Do you call one ?
HERBIE1 Posted February 27, 2011 Posted February 27, 2011 To answer questions posted: The nurse may or may not report, she says she will, but obviously it will create all kinds of problems if she does. Do we not have an obligation to the child ? She is not old enough to realize the risk she is taking. What if 6 weeks later she has an STD or is pregnant ? Scenario 2, no cop on scene, called in as chest pain. Do you call one ? Those are moral and ethical questions, not legal ones- at least in terms of our scope of practice and our obligations as health care providers. So you report the consensual sex. Then what? Does your moral or ethical obligation end there- especially if the nurse seems unwilling to act on the information in a manner you deem "appropriate"? Should you then call in a LEO to report your findings? If you are unsure, I suggest asking a LEO and get their opinion on the matter. If we find out about this consensual sex, do we have an "obligation" to report it to the parents to ensure they are aware? To me, the patient confidentiality issue is a HUGE one we cannot ignore, but I also feel that a parent is legally and morally responsible for their minor child, and they have a right to know what is going on. Clearly if the patient is upset about what happened, then I would encourage her to tell her parents, a family member, a priest- SOMEONE they trust. In our line of work, we see all types of illegal activities. From illegal cable TV hook ups and illegal apartments, to illegal gas line splices, extension cords running from one apartment to supply another who's electricity has been shut off. Clearly if there is a danger, it is our moral and legal obligation to report these things, but how far do we go with that? A parent asks why their teen daughter has been brought to an ER, and we know it's because they were drinking and passed out somewhere. Aren't we obligated to tell them that? To me, patient confidentiality is about medical issues, not ethical or behavioral problems, but in the case of a minor, the parent has the right to know what is going on with their child. Implied consent tells us we are supposed to act in the best interests of the child. In other words, we are supposed to act in a manner that any prudent parent would. Well, my idea of parental responsibility may be quite different than in another family, so my intentions and ideas may be quite different than someone else's. Maybe they have no problem with their 15 year old getting drunk, or having sex for money. Maybe they are completely uninvolved with the raising of their children. Maybe they think you have no right to infringe on their personal/family issues. Lots of gray here- interesting questions...
Fireguy181 Posted February 27, 2011 Posted February 27, 2011 Nice way to ignore the scenario as it was presented. So you're going to assume that just because a 15 year old boy *can* force himself on a 15 year old girl that that's what happened? Even though the scenario is a case of consensual contact? Do you routinely ignore information when you're on a call because someone *may* have been capable of doing something illegal or untoward or damaging to others? Are you going to turn in every under age patient who admits to you they're having sex? After all, the individual in question *could* have been raped, too. Following your logic would dictate that the answer would be yes. Let's use some common sense here. Okay.. I will agree with you. For this scenario I will change my answer to no. Now in real life where information is not clearly layed out in scenario format I will say yes. If life was perfect, and all was swell our dispatchs' would sound like "Medic 1 due to respond to the summer camp for 15 y/o female who knowingly conscented to sex with a male of the same age, she is now having second feelings" When do you hear a dispatch like that? If that female, or male, I dont care who it is, says they were rapped I take their word for it. Like you said in your last post we are not the cops we dont have to investigate drugs. Well you are right we are not the cops...nor lawyers we do not have the right to investigate or charge with rape. We are Mandated reporters not mandated investigators. Rape is rape, Im not a lawyer I dont care what the law says "How old one has to be to commit rape".. if someone says they were raped I will further that information on to the AHJ. Let them figure it out, Im sure you will regret ignoring a cry for help and then possibly loose a license over it? Now going to the other side... Maybe i am misreading the scenario. Maybe the female's chief complaint to the nurse was her having "second feelings about entering into sex" If thats the case I would document and advise the nurse and or female to talk to someone about it. But if she even so much as says or lips the word rape, force, or that she said no... thats getting reported
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