12 week accelerated program Versus 2 yr Paramedic course.

[Bieber]

You've got to go for the two year degree. Got to, got to, got to! You can't skimp on your education and to be honest every single person that gets their paramedic the "quick and easy" route brings down the entire profession and everyone in it.

EMS in the United States is atrocious. It really is. Our educational standards are pathetic, and since our leaders don't seem all that interested in fixing the problem it's up to every one of us to be a part of the change by rejecting paramedic mills and non-degree programs and actively seek degree granting paramedic programs. And this isn't just for the sake of the profession, but for your sake as well.

Let me tell you something, in my state it's REQUIRED for all paramedics to get their Associate's as a part of their program. So I've done the degree paramedic thing. And you know what? I STILL don't feel like I know anywhere NEAR as much as I should. And maybe you're a lot smarter than me, it wouldn't be that hard, but all the same, how prepared do you think YOU will be if you spend less time in school than I did?

You absolutely have to go for your degree. For the sake of your patients, for your own sake, and for the sake of our profession. We are healthcare professionals, or at least we should strive to be healthcare professionals, and part of that battle towards recognition means taking the hard road and insisting on degree level education.

You need to make a decision. What kind of paramedic are you going to be? And yeah, you could be a great paramedic after going through a 12 month program, but I doubt it. And whatever you decide, you need to realize that you're going to be setting the tone for your career. Are you going to be the kind of paramedic that takes the faster and easier route, or the longer and harder and ultimately more rewarding route?

Good luck on your journey towards becoming a paramedic.

[FireMedic65]

I am going to start an online paramedic program. Do it at your own pace. Buy the book and I will post test/quizzes. Feel free to use your book and/or google to answer the questions. As long as your check clears, you will pass.

[DwayneEMTP]

Wow. I guess the trolls are everywhere. It must have been tough following me around watching me giggle for all those years just to be qualified to make statements about the quality of care that i provide.

You know..I struck the comment instead of deleting it in case someone had already replied before I got rid of it. I didn't want to make them look silly if they had. What I find interesting is that I edited it at noon, you replied at 1330, and yet there is not strikeout in your post? Why would you remove that??

You make the point brother that you don't have any money, want want to take the quickest class and believe that that is good enough if you can pass 'the test' and are ALREADY planning on taking the easiest, laziest way possible to RN in a couple of years, right? Do I follow you around watching you get a hardon when you drive lights and sirens? Of course not. But I don't have to. You've told us, plain and clear that you are not here to be a good provider. You don't want to be a superior provider. You just want to get shit done as fast, and cheap as possible. Are you really proud of that approach to your paramedic career? Are you suprised that I didn't jump on board to support someone that simply wants to pollute my career with more ignorance?

Unfortunately you decided to follow spenac's lead and bitch and complain instead of taking a moment and creating an intelligent argument concerning how you felt about my post and why you felt it was unfair. That's too bad. Based on our other posts I'm confident that there is more to you than that.

Did you notice that he even attempted to imply that I gave his post a negative, though I certainly didn't. It's what he does...you are following a really bad example.

You post on patient care was stellar, and as I busted your balls here a little bit, if you click on the + in that thread you'll see that it came from me as well. Or did you just decide to be pissed before reading that thread?

I want nothing more than to see you succeed and I will do everything I can to help you do so if you want to. But to pretend that taking every shortcut is a good idea, to support you when you throw tantrums instead of debate...that is not support brother. That is feel good bullshit that will make you feel good today yet make you cry when you try and support your family someday.

This isn't a hobby man. You don't win because you get to ride an ambulance. It's medicine. I think that you likely have the ability to help people. But the attitude that you've shown in this thread is not a healthy way to go and I won't actively help you fail. In the future it's really pretty simple. If you don't like my posts, ignore them, if they have no value, hit the - button, if they're wrong, then step up to the friggin' plate and explain why. Cryin' don't get it done.

Dwayne

[11outof10]

Ok Dwayne, first of all. Like it or not, a 2 year degree does not a medic make. If you would like to get together and do some research into a time/cost benefit analysis of a 12 month program vs an associates degree program i would be more than willing to do that with you.

Since you decided to push it i would like to make a few, simple, (Non-scientific) and non-insulting points.

A "TWO" year degree does not actually encompass 24 full months of education. Many of the classes are prerequisites required by the university. I think we could both agree that there are some incredible educators at the college level, i believe you would also agree that some of them are there just to collect a paycheck. Attending a college does not guarantee that you will be taught by teachers that are any more knowledgeable than those involved in a certification program. My instructors have years of experience working for a variety of services and I feel that I gain immense amounts of information that applies practically to the "book" knowledge I'm gaining through my class. The DOT curriculum listed here http://www.nhtsa.gov...jury/ems/EMT-P/ is covered in the majority of Paramedic textbooks used in classes throughout the US. A crappy program CAN turn out crappy medics. But a stellar, well funded college program can turn out crappy medics as well. The didactic portion of our education serves to provide us with a knowledge base that ensures that the "fresh" medics hitting the streets will have the maximum learning potential when they reach the field. This is why the programs include hundreds of hours of clinical time. So that these newbie students (like me) can gain hands on, real world experience under the watchful eye of street savvy medics. So we learn, from books and from clinicals, how to treat patients medically. But the portion that you need the most is something that cannot be taught in a classroom. Empathy, compassion, being a patient advocate, getting puked on and smiling about it, getting pushed and screamed at by a mother who's child was just hit by a car and there's nothing you can do. I know plenty of programs that can fill you with years and years of medical terminology and assessment skills, and none of them can cause you to look on a drug addict and muster up a few more ounces of hope. This field is about way more than education. And until you prove to me that medics with 2 year degrees provide better patient care than medics with 1 year certificates then i would say that you don't have a single leg to stand on. OF COURSE we all need more education. Even DOCTORS need more education. They attend seminars, read journals, meet with colleagues just...like...we...do. Because in the end, school can only teach you so much. I would assume that the organizations that have spent decades fine tuning and testing education systems for EMS have a bit more experience than we do at setting a baseline for education. This is stated on the NREMT website http://www.nremt.org...about_exams.asp If you care to read over that you will see that national registry candidates have to achieve 95% confidence that they are simply competent enough to enter the field. It's not a measurement of all EMS knowledge EVER, as you said, we all are constantly learning. These programs are merely preparation for the field, where the REAL learning continues. If someone can reach that level of competency in 12 months why would that make you angry? I personally study my butt off every single day. I gave away my TV and xbox so i wouldn't be distracted. I'll be spending 12 hours in a classroom, 8-16 hours doing clinicals, 30+ hours working as a basic and 20+ hours studying EVERY SINGLE WEEK for the rest of 2011. So pardon me if i get a little offended when a bunch of "Back in my day" paramedics tell me that I am not as qualified to do the job I am dedicating 80 hours a week learning as they are. Thats an ignorant platform and I'll debate that with anyone who wants. I read my chapters over and over, make hundreds of vocabulary flashcards, study drugs, watch videos online, create my own quizzes based on covered material and then get online to get insulted for not having a degree? Nope, not going to take it, now or ever. I was watching a 2 hour interactive video during our first conversation, so pardon my simplistic response. I'll make sure that i spell everything out for you guys from now on.

You will never hear me saying that I'm learning everything i need to know. The funny thing is, this topic has peaked my interest in paramedic degree programs. I don't know if it would work, but I do think that education is important, and I'm not trying to downplay that at all. But it should be obvious that different people have different opportunities. When I worked in Kentucky there was only one college with a paramedic degree, and it was over an hour drive away. Instead of choosing one of the short programs locally, I decided to wait. Because of the low quality medics they turned out. ( most never passed registry anyway). I'm just a firm believer that if you want something bad enough, you find a way to do it. And that applies across the board. If I want to be a good medic ( and i do) then within a quality program i will work my tail off for a year and become a good medic.

Sorry for the book.

Edited March 12, 2011 by 11outof10

[Eydawn]

Are we talking a year long program or a 12 week program?! Hang on here... so confused.

Wendy

CO EMT-B

[chbare]

An interesting question if we consider it from an evidence based frame of reference. Near as I can tell nobody, including the OP has performed any significant review of the literature. All I have seen are anecdotes and posturing. From the evidence that I have seen, the most successful programmes are ones that are "accredited." Success appears to be commonly defined as NREMT first time pass rates. So, we can say with a certain degree of confidence that an "accredited" programme will be more "successful."

However, what components make a programme successful? This is somewhat of an ill defined constellation of concepts. I am not sure the evidence is clear. However, a 12 week paramedic programme is probably not going to fall into any sort of central tendency of programme lengths around the United States. (Perhaps it would pan out in a plus or minus a couple of standard deviations sort of way?) Therefore, I would be very cautious about programmes that deviate significantly from curricula that would fit into a "standard" framework. Not that I can say these outlying curricula are necessarily bad; however, with a lack of evidence I am more inclined to error on the side of caution.

Take care,

chbare.

[Eydawn]

Are we talking a year long program or a 12 week program?! Hang on here... so confused.

Wendy

CO EMT-B

[11outof10]

Are we talking a year long program or a 12 week program?! Hang on here... so confused.

Wendy

CO EMT-B

I think it started at 12 weeks, went to 2 years, then lost a little weight down to 12 months.

[Bieber]

Couple of things, 11outof10. First off, you're right. A two year degree doesn't make you a paramedic. But you're talking from a far different position from Dwayne. He's been through paramedic school, he knows what it offers and what it doesn't, as do many others here. You're going to realize as you near the end of your paramedic program and after you're done just how little you've learned about medicine--and that's in a two year degree program as much as in a certificate program.

It's astounding, it really is, how vast the field of medicine is. Even the specialty of emergency medicine is far more expansive than what we paramedics learn. And you're also right that you WILL learn a LOT during your first couple of years as a paramedic, and indeed, throughout your entire career as a paramedic. But the education you're going to get is hands on learning, not academic education. And THAT is what's severely lacking in EMS. Paramedics with decades of experience still fall short when it comes to academic knowledge, and fall short when it comes to understanding the full breadth of medicine. We learn about emergencies, but the bulk of what we do is not emergent.

Are you learning in your paramedic program about eczema or photodermatitis? How about prions? Scoliosis? Ankylosing spondylitis? Multiple myeloma? What about the mechanisms that turn proto-oncogenes into oncogenes? Are you learning about what emergent conditions can result from amyloidosis? I'm guessing not. But you know what? We deal with patients who suffer from these conditions. It's not enough to do the whole IV, O2, monitor and transport with these patients. And it's not enough to simply transport everyone to the hospital. That's bankrupting the system. But there's not hardly a single medical director out there who will let their paramedics treat and release or release and refer--not in the U.S. And you know why? Because we simply do NOT know enough about medicine to be able to accurately distinguish between emergent and non-emergent conditions.

Increasing our education is going to do a lot of things for EMS. First and foremost, it is going to make us better providers. Much better providers. Secondly, it's going to raise our professional image. If you can't even mandate a MINIMUM of an Associate's degree, why in the world would you EVER expect someone with an MD to trust you to do ANYTHING to ANY patients? Why would anyone let someone who only has their high school diploma and a 12 month certificate perform ANY sort of advanced medical procedures on themselves or their loved ones? I'll tell you why, because the public knows almost nothing about EMS. If they knew how woefully inept we are, they wouldn't let us so much as touch them except to give them a ride--and nothing but--to the hospital.

I don't pull out the "well, I'm a paramedic card" because I am a brand-spankin' newbie, but in this case I am going to make an exception. You may think you know so much about being a paramedic because you're in school to be one, but you obviously haven't been in the program long enough to learn the most valuable lesson paramedic school can teach you: that we are a joke. We're not prepared to hit the streets, we've just got no other choice once our time in paramedic school has ended. So we do the best we can, hope it turns out for the best, and leave it at that.

I was in the top of my class in paramedic school. I was praised by my professors and classmates for being "Google" (my pre-Bieber nickname), and my preceptors told me that I needed to go to med school or PA school because I was "too smart" to be just a paramedic. And you know what? I don't know jack shit. I struggle every shift because I feel undereducated to do the job. I feel like I don't know anything and the idea that someone is actually trusting me with their life is terrifying. Because even though I went through a degree program, that still IS NOT ENOUGH.

We HAVE to raise the standards. Twelve months is not enough. Two YEARS is not enough. I'm qualified to do the bare minimum, the VERY bare minimum. I need to learn so much more before I will be a real asset to anyone. But I can do the job of a paramedic as it currently is, but that is a transient and fleeting thing because in order to be of any REAL benefit to anyone, I HAVE to learn more. And so do you. And so does Dwayne. And so does every other paramedic on this forum and everywhere in the country.

Our patients deserve more than a two year degree, and they certainly deserve more than a 12 month certificate. They deserve professionals who know more than a very narrow window of medicine--and not even the full depth of that.

You make think you're a smart guy, and maybe you are. But I'm a smart guy too. And I've been through the degree program. And I'm telling you, I'm not that smart. I'm not as smart as I thought I was and you're not as smart as you think you are. You want to be a good paramedic? You want to elevate the profession? You want your medical director to trust you and give you more freedom? You want ALL paramedics to be able to do more and be given more faith by their medical directors? You cut out this misguided notion that the degree doesn't matter, because it does. And you cut out the idea that paramedic education at any level below that of the few four year degree programs that exist in this country is adequate. Because they're not. And I'm proud of my college, and I think they gave me a good foundation, but neither I nor they think that they're perfect or that their paramedic program doesn't need improvement.

You've got a long ways to go. I've got a long ways to go. We've all got a long ways to go. The only difference between you and me, or you and Dwayne, or you and a number of other paramedics on this forum is that you haven't yet realized that that long ways to go begins with our educational system.

[11outof10]

Bieber, I honestly have never claimed to know everything, or ANYTHING for that matter. All i claimed is that i work very hard to learn the curriculum provided to me under the approval of the DOT. Honestly, I agree that we need to have more. I get made fun of all the time because I talk about the whole Paramedic Practitioner thing ( australia and wherever else it exsists) They laugh because its just like you say. They stick IVs and monitors on people and 20 minutes later drop them in an ER bed. Maybe it should be a bachelors degree. Idk. When i actually started work as a basic EMT I did realized how little i actually knew. And it was terrifying sometimes. But I did what i was trained to do. Treat immediate life threats and get their butts to a higher level of care. If we are going to raise the bar then why don't we take some action? If the thousands of paramedics in the NREMT and NAEMT petitioned the DOT for a higher standard of education, why wouldn't they listen? EMS is still a very young system compared to health care in general. And the expansion of medical knowledge every year is astounding. Just today on the forum, i watched a video about regenerative medicine. "printing" organs with tissues and stem cells. Compared to that, what am i? I stop bleeding and hold peoples hand when their grandma dies. But we are still necessary. Without Basics and Medics doing what we do, most of these people would never make it to the ER in the first place. If we all want change so bad then lets do it. Lets demand associate degree programs. I'm all for it.

But my 5,000 dollars is non-refundable. If i was the brightest bulb i probably would have gone to school BEFORE i was 25. I wish i did. But then i probably wouldn't have picked EMS. But now that i have chosen it, i love it. Its all i ever want to do. And i want to be good at it, just like anyone else.

you replied at 1330, and yet there is not strikeout in your post? Why would you remove that??

Dwayne

I have 21 total posts and i figure about 10 of them are in this thread. I don't know how to strike or not strike. I just copied and pasted?

Are you learning in your paramedic program about eczema or photodermatitis? How about prions? Scoliosis? Ankylosing spondylitis? Multiple myeloma? What about the mechanisms that turn proto-oncogenes into oncogenes? Are you learning about what emergent conditions can result from amyloidosis? I'm guessing not. But you know what? We deal with patients who suffer from these conditions.

I do agree with you, we should know more about patients conditions. We only have certain types of protocols that we can perform, and a limited number of medications (Which probably don't cover those things) that we can administer. Having knowledge of a large number of conditions can be useful in forming an accurate field impression but doesn't necessarily change how we would treat those patients. I'm not disagreeing with you by any means. Knowledge is power.