EMS Defensive Tactics/Martial Arts

[EMT12]

Who In Here Believes That All EMS Personnel Should Be Asked/Required To Go Through A Defensive Tactics or Basic Martial Arts Course As A Requirement For EMS Training?

[mobey]

Who In Here Believes That All EMS Personnel Should Be Asked/Required To Go Through A Defensive Tactics or Basic Martial Arts Course As A Requirement For EMS Training?

I believe all EMS personnel should be required to get at least 6 credits in A&P, and a basic english course including medical terminology and introduction to research.

Martial arts is not on the list.

If you are in a position on a regular basis that you need to protect yourself physically, you FAIL at basic scene safety.

BTW: Why do you capitalize every word?

[Eydawn]

Our goal is treatment and transport of the ill and injured. Not fighting with people. Training in appropriate restraints to be used sparingly, yes, absolutely. Training in martial arts? No... gotta agree with Mobey here, if you're needing that frequently you may want to re-evaluate your scene-safety criteria.

Yes, occasionally you may need to extract yourself from a sticky situation. Will you have the advantage if you have martial arts training? Totally depends on the situation.

Wendy

CO EMT-B

[paramedicmike]

I firmly believe that if you need to consistently or frequently employ martial arts physical skills on the job then 1) you have failed at identifying what is a safe scene and 2) need to find another line of work.

There are two types of people who practice martial arts. There are those who are true martial artists and those who think they are. There is a distinct difference. I'm seriously wondering which one you are.

[EMT12]

I firmly believe that if you need to consistently or frequently employ martial arts physical skills on the job then 1) you have failed at identifying what is a safe scene and 2) need to find another line of work.

There are two types of people who practice martial arts. There are those who are true martial artists and those who think they are. There is a distinct difference. I'm seriously wondering which one you are.

Paramedic Mike,

I'll try to reply to this post with as much restraint and respect as I can, ignorance can be irritating...

You've obviously never been a scene where it rapidly changed into an unsafe scene, and if you have and hadn't had to use basic escape and defense techniques, your lucky!!! If you didn't notice I included Defensive Tactics in with this simple debate.

First off, please don't question my integrity or my status as a Martial Artist!

Second, You don't know me, so to prejudge based on a simple debate isn't very civil nor intelligent.

Third, You attack and question my status as a Martial Artist, based soley on a forum debate?

My question to you is do you even know what your talking about? Or are you just wanting to push a button here?

Last, I honestly question rather or not you even know what your talking about regarding 'True Martial Artists' Versus "Those who think they are"... Do you even know what a 'True Martial Artist' is?

Do YOU Even practice Martial Arts?

I'm seriously questioning if your even a Martial Artist yourself or a wannabe!! Martial Artists are civil in debates, usually.

With all due respect, I'm just trying to have a civil conversation as I've had in other forums, with you questioning my status as a Martial Artist, it makes it pretty hard to be civil, I take Martial Arts very seriously!! Sir.

But I'm also an EMS provider who has seen the effects of scenes becoming unsafe, even after 'observing, thinking, and declaring' a scene safe, which is why I posed this debate.

Now I'll address the other remarks:

I do believe that Defensive Tactics should be a basic part of EMS training, especially since scene safety can become an 'unsafe' scene just as quickly and usually without prior notice. The ability to escape such as situation can only hinder EMS safety and provide an extra layer of protection for escaping. Martial Arts can provide this as well. Certainly, we are not LEO's and therefore should be act as though we are. However, any situation in EMS in the field can become an unsafe scene just as much as it 'may' look like a safe scene. Scene safety is extremely important, but what many EMS providers often forget, is that a safe scene can quickly become unsafe for providers. What I would argue regarding Martial Arts and Defensive Tactics training is the awareness training you get from both. The use of force training, perception, awareness, and basic escape and avoidance training which comes along with Defensive Tactics and Martial Arts training.

A couple of you argued that if you have to use physical force, you need to reevaluate your scene safety, I agree!! But I would also add that a what would look like a safe scene, could quickly beocme an unsafe scene and with potential injury to the providers. I'm not talking hand to hand combat here, merely training in extra awareness, escape, and limiting the amount of injury to the provider in a situation. (Probably should have cleared that one up!) I'm not sure how some of your agencies do it with certain calls especially potential violent ones, however in my area, LEO's aren't always available and sometimes were in a situation for quite a while, alone with no LEO backup. So the potential of a violent situation, especially in a violent call is high.

In MY OPINION, first off I agree, A & P, Medical Terminology, English, and basic report writing should be included in all EMT programs. I know it is for many Paramedic programs. I'm a firm believer in hoping for the best, but preparing for the worst, this includes being prepared to get out of a sticky situation. Martial Arts and Defensive Tactics training offers basic awareness, escape, and defensive techniques. Basic Scene Safety is paramount, but I also have seen a 'what looked like a safe scene, quickly become unsafe. For example, being called to a 96 yo female difficulty breathing, and then having her grandson come out thinking we were LEO's and swinging a bat at us... I believe it should be, at least a basic 8-12 hour class included with CEU's. There are several programs around the USA that do offer such training, which is why I started this debate!

Peace.

Edited March 23, 2011 by EMT12

[Dustdevil]

In MY OPINION, first off I agree, A & P, Medical Terminology, English, and basic report writing should be included in all EMT programs. I know it is for many Paramedic programs. I'm a firm believer in hoping for the best, but preparing for the worst, this includes being prepared to get out of a sticky situation.

Good call. I think the point others were trying to make is that, until you are very well educated at all of those things, you have no business even responding to the situation. And unfortunately, only a fraction of the medics in this country are. Consequently, defensive tactics is way, way down on the list of priorities for initial education. And if you are a "true martial artist," then you already know the uselessness of a one-time defence class anyhow.

Good topic though.

[Eydawn]

Welcome back Rob!! We missed you!

--Wendy

[paramedicmike]

Paramedic Mike,

I'll try to reply to this post with as much restraint and respect as I can, ignorance can be irritating...

Yes. Ignorance can be really irritating. However, I'm pretty positive that if you focus on your education and working on not being ignorant you'll find that you're much less irritating not only to yourself but to others.

You've obviously never been a scene where it rapidly changed into an unsafe scene, and if you have and hadn't had to use basic escape and defense techniques, your lucky!!!

You've obviously never attempted to employ any serious attempt at comprehending what I wrote. I think this takes us right back to your ignorance issue.

First off, please don't question my integrity or my status as a Martial Artist!

First off? Haven't you already tried to make two points already? That would make this point number three. It looks like we're back to that ignorance thing again. Pesky thing that ignorance. Keep working at it. I'm sure you'll get it at some point.

Why shouldn't I question your integrity? You're new. You've made a handful of posts here. You've done nothing to demonstrate you have any kind of experience to back up anything you've presented to the group.

Second, You don't know me, so to prejudge based on a simple debate isn't very civil nor intelligent.

Prejudge? So you think I'm judging before I judge? Just how, exactly, does one do that?

What's not civil about asking a question based on a post you made? Do you want to debate or do you want people to agree with you and stroke your ego?

As for intelligence, you've already demonstrated that your reading comprehension is lacking, you can't count and somehow think I'm capable of doing something before I actually do it. Do you really want to question the intelligence of someone else?

My question to you is do you even know what your talking about?

More than you think I do.

Martial Artists are civil in debates, usually.

With all due respect, I'm just trying to have a civil conversation as I've had in other forums, with you questioning my status as a Martial Artist, it makes it pretty hard to be civil, I take Martial Arts very seriously!! Sir.

Please show me where I've demonstrated any lack of civility. Simply questioning you during a discussion does not constitute a lack of civility. If you're finding it hard to be civil based on people questioning you, or think that people questioning you is a measure of a lack of civility, then you're the one with the problem.

But I'm also an EMS provider who has seen the effects of scenes becoming unsafe, even after 'observing, thinking, and declaring' a scene safe, which is why I posed this debate.

Well, you haven't really posed a debate. You posed a question.

I do believe that Defensive Tactics should be a basic part of EMS training, especially since scene safety can become an 'unsafe' scene just as quickly and usually without prior notice. The ability to escape such as situation can only hinder EMS safety and provide an extra layer of protection for escaping. Martial Arts can provide this as well. Certainly, we are not LEO's and therefore should be act as though we are. However, any situation in EMS in the field can become an unsafe scene just as much as it 'may' look like a safe scene. Scene safety is extremely important, but what many EMS providers often forget, is that a safe scene can quickly become unsafe for providers. What I would argue regarding Martial Arts and Defensive Tactics training is the awareness training you get from both. The use of force training, perception, awareness, and basic escape and avoidance training which comes along with Defensive Tactics and Martial Arts training.

How interesting that you chose to list "use of force training" first in your list of things that you think EMS providers should be trained in. Use of force should be the absolute LAST thing an EMS provider has to resort to should the dynamic of any scene deteriorate to the point of being unsafe. You listing it first among the things you find important is intriguing...

... and takes me back to the original question I typed out in my initial response in this thread.

A couple of you argued that if you have to use physical force, you need to reevaluate your scene safety, I agree!!

No. What people have said is that if you find yourself in a position where force is needed then you have already failed.

In MY OPINION, first off I agree, A & P, Medical Terminology, English, and basic report writing should be included in all EMT programs. I know it is for many Paramedic programs. I'm a firm believer in hoping for the best, but preparing for the worst, this includes being prepared to get out of a sticky situation. Martial Arts and Defensive Tactics training offers basic awareness, escape, and defensive techniques. Basic Scene Safety is paramount, but I also have seen a 'what looked like a safe scene, quickly become unsafe. For example, being called to a 96 yo female difficulty breathing, and then having her grandson come out thinking we were LEO's and swinging a bat at us... I believe it should be, at least a basic 8-12 hour class included with CEU's. There are several programs around the USA that do offer such training, which is why I started this debate!

Peace.

As Rob mentioned, I reiterated, and if you were really someone who has studied as extensively as you'd like us to believe you would already know, what you are proposing cannot be learned and properly implemented in an 8-12 hour con-ed class. This requires repeated training and practice in order to effectively become second nature to an individual.

Given that the vast majority of EMTs (especially EMTs) and paramedics are woefully undereducated to perform this job then emphasis needs to be placed on serious academic work before an 8-12 hour con-ed class.

[EMT12]

Yes. Ignorance can be really irritating. However, I'm pretty positive that if you focus on your education and working on not being ignorant you'll find that you're much less irritating not only to yourself but to others.

12: Yep, I found that your lack of knowledge and education truly come through with the first post.... And yes I think your irritating!! But don't worry I don't hate ya... yet...

You've obviously never attempted to employ any serious attempt at comprehending what I wrote. I think this takes us right back to your ignorance issue.

12: Yeah, I couldn't a thing you were trying to say in the first post, I can't read ignorance!!

First off? Haven't you already tried to make two points already? That would make this point number three. It looks like we're back to that ignorance thing again. Pesky thing that ignorance. Keep working at it. I'm sure you'll get it at some point.

12: Pesky little thing that question or debate forum is huh? I'm sure if you knew how to handle yourself in a debate forum, you'll find a better way of chatting!! Good work though!! Keep it up!!

12: First off!! I have no idea where your going with this... Are you confused? Oh wait, you must be that mental patient I took in yesterday, with the -10 iq!!

Why shouldn't I question your integrity? You're new. You've made a handful of posts here. You've done nothing to demonstrate you have any kind of experience to back up anything you've presented to the group.

12: And your point is "because I'm new, I shouldn't know anything?" That makes alot of sense!! Going back to that little chat about ignorance, keep working on that attitude!!

12: Are you sure your a paramedic? I thought med school required brains and intelligence to attend? Huh, guess they'll let anyone with half a brain and 5% intelligence into Med school. That's where our EMS is heading huh? Greaat!

Prejudge? So you think I'm judging before I judge? Just how, exactly, does one do that?

12: Not sure, I was asking you that question? You 'seem' to know me and all, so I was wondering how can you question my experience? Hmmmm you must be psychic!!

What's not civil about asking a question based on a post you made? Do you want to debate or do you want people to agree with you and stroke your ego?

12: You know there is a slight difference between questioning and what you posted.. I though personal attacks from ignorant morons were prohibited on this site? Civil means taking off the topic itself, not the personal front you made!! But good try though!!

12: "Stroke your ego" that's good, small words, you should be able to sound those out quite easy! Do you even know what an ego is?

As for intelligence, you've already demonstrated that your reading comprehension is lacking, you can't count and somehow think I'm capable of doing something before I actually do it. Do you really want to question the intelligence of someone else?

12: See there ya go again questioning someone else when you have no idea whom or what they are or know.... I'm serioulsly starting to wonder if you can even comprehend a civil talk, debate, or question. Or if your preteen brain has even comprehended how to have a talk.... Your attitude and lack of brain cells have come through mighty fine during this question... Good work!!

12: Again with the intelligence, are you sure a medic, I though medics had to have at least a little bit of brains, you clearly have none... That's ok, well work on that!!

More than you think I do.

12: Oh I'm sure that's alot!! Considering your lack of ability to even have a civil talk!

Please show me where I've demonstrated any lack of civility. Simply questioning you during a discussion does not constitute a lack of civility. If you're finding it hard to be civil based on people questioning you, or think that people questioning you is a measure of a lack of civility, then you're the one with the problem.

12: I have no idea what your talking about!!!! Civility is the ability to have a simple talk or debate about something without personal attacks (which you've clearly demonstrated you can't have)... There is a difference between questioning, and attacking!! Civility just means you do it in a civil matter. I think this whole topic ticks you off because you have no idea how to respond (as it was in your post)...

Well, you haven't really posed a debate. You posed a question.

12: True, a question meant for debate!! Which clearly your unable to have civil!!

How interesting that you chose to list "use of force training" first in your list of things that you think EMS providers should be trained in. Use of force should be the absolute LAST thing an EMS provider has to resort to should the dynamic of any scene deteriorate to the point of being unsafe. You listing it first among the things you find important is intriguing...

... and takes me back to the original question I typed out in my initial response in this thread.

12: Actually 'Use of Force' training is the 1st priority that EMS providers should be briefed on!! You've obviously never had a scene go from 'safe' to 'unsafe'.... And go back and re-read what I said... (Oh if you can even read and COMPREHEND) what I said... Not sure you can though, but keep trying!!

12: Do you even know what 'Use of Force Training' is or even entails?

See there ya go thinking you know it all... again... That's ok I'll take a couple months out of schedule to educate you on that... Seeing how were gonna need it!! Or do you need more time to process it?

No. What people have said is that if you find yourself in a position where force is needed then you have already failed.

12: And my response was a 'safe' scene can become an 'unsafe' scene, even if you think the scene was already safe.... No scene is 100% safe!!! The only way you fail, is you fail to recognize the scene change!!

Q: What happens if you walk into a elders home, you think the scene is safe, and then half way through the son comes out with a bat and starts swinging? Meanwhile your trapped between a wall, and the son trying to escape.... (Oh wait that might be too much for you, I'll draw you a picture so that you can understand it better!)

As Rob mentioned, I reiterated, and if you were really someone who has studied as extensively as you'd like us to believe you would already know, what you are proposing cannot be learned and properly implemented in an 8-12 hour con-ed class. This requires repeated training and practice in order to effectively become second nature to an individual.

12: Is that a fact? Well I wonder what many of the EMS Defensive Tactic courses are for? Hmmmm, they must be about cooking!! See, there you go with the personal attack/questioning... That's ok, ignorance has many questions.... Check out DT4EMS and you'll see a little of what I'm talking about.... If you can write!!

12: Do you even practice Martial Arts or Defensive Tactics? Do you know what they entail? Here's my advice, study before you speak on a subject... Makes you sound alot more intelligent.

12: 8-12 Hours of awareness, escape, and avoidance training... Yes that can be learned in an 8-12 hour course, if it's repeated annually... Like a CEU or OTEP..

Given that the vast majority of EMTs (especially EMTs) and paramedics are woefully undereducated to perform this job then emphasis needs to be placed on serious academic work before an 8-12 hour con-ed class.

12: Sounds to me like your putting down the EMT level, may I remind you that EMT's make up a majority of the rural areas in the US in EMS... Without EMT's much of the rural areas (without ALS) would be in bad shape. I'll also add that a majority of EMS providers are either Volunteer and/or BLS agencies!!

12: Now I'd agree that academic work should be the front course, especially with the changes in EMS and new technology coming out. I won't aruge there, but for many of the EMS providers, especially in the rural areas, having that 'extra' bit of awareness training could only 'add' onto the knowledge all EMS provders must have.. Afterall 'Scene Safety' is #1!!

Good call. I think the point others were trying to make is that, until you are very well educated at all of those things, you have no business even responding to the situation. And unfortunately, only a fraction of the medics in this country are. Consequently, defensive tactics is way, way down on the list of priorities for initial education. And if you are a "true martial artist," then you already know the uselessness of a one-time defence class anyhow.

Good topic though.

I don't argue with the fact that additional medical courses and EMS classes are essential. I agree, if you don't know A&P, Medical Terminology, etc... Then you should'nt be responding. What I was trying to get at, was that with this world becoming more violent, EMS providers are now, more than ever, are walking into potential violent situations, with and/or without LEO's (in some rural areas, like in my area, that's a definite possibility) and having that extra awareness training, like I said I'm not talking about hand to hand combat, or fighting, but simply having the extra awareness training that Defensive Tactics and Martial Arts provide, could only benefit you. As I said above Scene Safety is #1. But a scene, even a 'safe' scene, can become an 'unsafe' scene just as fast... Learning Defensive Tactics and/or Martial Arts and making a program that would solely benefit EMS provders (there are several out there) which usually include evasiveness, avoidance, and escape, not fighting. (www.dt4ems.com) Gentlemen who runs that program has sough to the same thing I'm posing a question about.

In regards to the one-time defense class, I wasn't talking about that. A Defensive Tactics 8-12 hour class, usually teaches just fundamentals of avoidance, escape, control, awareness, strikes, and use of force. Now I'll say that a "one-time defense class" would be usless, however if it were an 8-12 hour class, and renewed annually (like many CPR, PALS, ACLS, PHTLS, BLS, and ALS trainings) are, then that would only improve the EMS providers awareness and expand there perception of any situation.

Initial education as I said above should be in the classroom, A & P, Medical Terminology, Writing, Etc.... I'm talking about having this as a CEU or OTEP, ongoing training.

As I said before, the reason why I posted this question was 1) I have seen a declared 'safe scene' go from safe to 'unsafe' and awareness training came in handy, 2) the benefits, I believe of having more awareness training, (either in Defensive Tactics and/or Martial Arts) would only fit to benefit the EMS providers safety!!

Edited March 29, 2011 by EMT12

[Eydawn]

Mike's post was kind of snarky, but he made some valid points. I can't read your replies and differentiate, EMT12- so I really got lost in your reply. Can you fix the formatting with some text bolding or something? I will say, however, that insulting Mike's intelligence really isn't the brightest option... as he's extremely intelligent and very passionate, and a very experienced forum poster who DEFINITELY knows how to debate.

He mentioned IGNORANCE, which is a lack of understanding or education, while you went for the "simple little brain" route, thereby implying STUPIDITY, which is an inherent quality that can't be fixed in most cases. Totally different worlds here... make sure you stay in the correct verbiage ring, or you may find yourself out-sparred.

I really have to say here, that yes, it's good for someone to know how to extract themselves from a scene if it becomes violent, but that it should not be a primary training focus. We practice medicine and should focus on enhancing that practice, and while doing so we occasionally end up in scenes where we run the risk of getting our ass kicked. I can tell you from growing up in the ghetto that responding with use of force as your first thought is seldom the best answer, and will usually result in catastrophic results unless you are absolutely sure that you will win (and I am not sure of victory in any given situation, even when I'm armed with a firearm. I do have a concealed carry permit, FYI.)

One of the biggest things I have taken away from my OWN self defense and concealed carry classes is the principle of de-escalation and escape as first priority. Ergo, use of force is your LAST RESORT. You say that you posed a question for debate, and yet when counter-opinions were offered, you simply re-iterated your own position. That's not a debate! It's really irritating, is what it is.

Can you please explain, in detail, why you think use of force training should be imperative for EMS providers, and provide counters for the argument that de-escalation is your first priority? Step outside your "box" for a moment here- remember, the thinking that may be second nature for you as a martial artist is NOT the same kind of thinking that non-martial-artists have here, so you need to explain those thought processes so we can understand where you're coming from.

Otherwise, no offense, you really sound like a broken record of "Hurp-da, scenes get unsafe, everyone should be able to kick ass. Because scenes get unsafe. Because training's a good idea." WHY should this kind of training be implemented? Reasoning? Statistics on personnel injury from violent situations comparing services choosing to provide training and those who don't would really lend you some credibility as well... to the Google-Fu, Peabody! You gotta make it worth our while in here...

I will say this- my friend who is taking his final black belt test for Tae Kwon Do in June, who is a new EMT, has explicitly told me that does not go into a situation considering force as his first option. It's always in the back of his mind, sure, but he's going to opt to protect his team and facilitate escape way before engaging with someone who's gone whacko. And he can pretty much end any fight that someone starts (I've witnessed it and patched up the resulting damage afterwards).

Mike- the pot shot of "you're new" was kind of a low blow... I'd retract that one... ;-)

Wendy

CO EMT-B

Edit: PS-- editing your post to include some of what I just asked here, after I wrote, is kind of cheating ;-) New post please!

Edited March 29, 2011 by Eydawn