EMS Defensive Tactics/Martial Arts

[EMT12]

Mike's post was kind of snarky, but he made some valid points. I can't read your replies and differentiate, EMT12- so I really got lost in your reply. Can you fix the formatting with some text bolding or something? I will say, however, that insulting Mike's intelligence really isn't the brightest option... as he's extremely intelligent and very passionate, and a very experienced forum poster who DEFINITELY knows how to debate.

12: Do I know you?

Thank you for the kind words, not sure about the text or format.... My apologizes... And yes it was a little snarky I'll admit, but given whom I was talking to....

PS: when and where did we debate at?

He mentioned IGNORANCE, which is a lack of understanding or education, while you went for the "simple little brain" route, thereby implying STUPIDITY, which is an inherent quality that can't be fixed in most cases. Totally different worlds here... make sure you stay in the correct verbiage ring, or you may find yourself out-sparred.

12: I was going for both!!! Don't worry I'm prepared for the insult!!

I really have to say here, that yes, it's good for someone to know how to extract themselves from a scene if it becomes violent, but that it should not be a primary training focus. We practice medicine and should focus on enhancing that practice, and while doing so we occasionally end up in scenes where we run the risk of getting our ass kicked. I can tell you from growing up in the ghetto that responding with use of force as your first thought is seldom the best answer, and will usually result in catastrophic results unless you are absolutely sure that you will win (and I am not sure of victory in any given situation, even when I'm armed with a firearm. I do have a concealed carry permit, FYI.)

12: Like I said in the previous posts, using Defensive Tactics and/or Martial Arts training for awareness, escape, and avoidance would only add to an EMS providers tools... I agree, going in with a mentality of "Force as the first option" is never acceptable... But having it in the back of your head, might keep you on your toes, therefore enhancing your awareness.

One of the biggest things I have taken away from my OWN self defense and concealed carry classes is the principle of de-escalation and escape as first priority. Ergo, use of force is your LAST RESORT. You say that you posed a question for debate, and yet when counter-opinions were offered, you simply re-iterated your own position. That's not a debate! It's really irritating, is what it is.

12: I agree de-escalation is always first. This actually falls into the category of 'use of force' since it's usually within the first level of the 'use of force ladder'...

Also, a debate is giving your own opinion... And seeing others as well. Plus it's kinda hard to have a debate with a kuncklehead...

I'll tell you what's irritating, dealing with a knucklehead> that's irritating!!!

Can you please explain, in detail, why you think use of force training should be imperative for EMS providers, and provide counters for the argument that de-escalation is your first priority? Step outside your "box" for a moment here- remember, the thinking that may be second nature for you as a martial artist is NOT the same kind of thinking that non-martial-artists have here, so you need to explain those thought processes so we can understand where you're coming from.

12: I believe I touched on that the above respone I gave... Otherwise e-mail me...

Otherwise, no offense, you really sound like a broken record of "Hurp-da, scenes get unsafe, everyone should be able to kick ass. Because scenes get unsafe. Because training's a good idea." WHY should this kind of training be implemented? Reasoning? Statistics on personnel injury from violent situations comparing services choosing to provide training and those who don't would really lend you some credibility as well... to the Google-Fu, Peabody! You gotta make it worth our while in here...

12: AWSOME!!! "Broken record of "Hurp-da"

Check out the statistics on EMS personnel injuries and death, while vehicle accidents and on the job injuries are still #1. Violence towards EMS professionals is on the rise... (Google it I guess)

12: Hey, I just posted a question, then had a kuncklehead to deal with, so my question and debate was thrown off.... Don't ya hate it when that happens?

I will say this- my friend who is taking his final black belt test for Tae Kwon Do in June, who is a new EMT, has explicitly told me that does not go into a situation considering force as his first option. It's always in the back of his mind, sure, but he's going to opt to protect his team and facilitate escape way before engaging with someone who's gone whacko. And he can pretty much end any fight that someone starts (I've witnessed it and patched up the resulting damage afterwards).

12: Like I said, I'm not talking about all out hand to hand combat, simply additional training in awarness, avoidance, escape, and use of force. (If you don't know what the 'Use of Force' training is or includes, look it up!) All I'm saying is a training to enhance scene safety capabilities, so that if a scene becomes unsafe, EMS providers will have the tools to get out safely!!

As a fellow former TaeKwonDoist and Black Belt, I can relate to your friend... Scene Safety is always on my mind, with force in the back just in case...

Mike- the pot shot of "you're new" was kind of a low blow... I'd retract that one... ;-)

12: Eh I've had worst said!! Thanks though....

Now where, how, when did we debate and do I know you? :-)

Wendy

CO EMT-B

Edit: PS-- editing your post to include some of what I just asked here, after I wrote, is kind of cheating ;-) New post please!

Sorry, it was easier for me to respond to your remarks and make sure I got them all with adding a "cheat".... I may have a good memory, but I can't remember every detail!! ;-)

Edited March 29, 2011 by EMT12

[Eydawn]

See, there you go again... *tsk* Mike is not a knucklehead. He simply chose to be more aggressive in his engagement with your topic.

I don't know if we know each other. Does my writing style ring bells for you?

See those nice B I U buttons up top? Write out your responses in the quote, then highlight them and click one of those to set your text apart.

I'll give you an example:

12: Do I know you?

Thank you for the kind words, not sure about the text or format.... My apologizes... And yes it was a little snarky I'll admit, but given whom I was talking to....

PS: when and where did we debate at?

He mentioned IGNORANCE, which is a lack of understanding or education, while you went for the "simple little brain" route, thereby implying STUPIDITY, which is an inherent quality that can't be fixed in most cases. Totally different worlds here... make sure you stay in the correct verbiage ring, or you may find yourself out-sparred.

12: I was going for both!!! Don't worry I'm prepared for the insult!!

I really have to say here, that yes, it's good for someone to know how to extract themselves from a scene if it becomes violent, but that it should not be a primary training focus. We practice medicine and should focus on enhancing that practice, and while doing so we occasionally end up in scenes where we run the risk of getting our ass kicked. <snip>

See what I mean? See how your responses are easier to see?

Now you're making a little more sense with what you're presenting. I think you got your feathers all ruffled when Mike dropped on the table that you'd given no evidence that you are not a poseur... trust me, we've had folks in here trying to fake military experience, medical certs, you name it- so him honestly questioning your status was not meant to be an insult, but rather intended to protect those who truly hold the cred if you catch my drift. And then y'all turned this thread into monkey-ping-pong. I know why Mike did... but I'm not sure why you responded in kind, to be honest.

Wendy

CO EMT-B

[EMT12]

See, there you go again... *tsk* Mike is not a knucklehead. He simply chose to be more aggressive in his engagement with your topic.

I don't know if we know each other. Does my writing style ring bells for you?

See those nice B I U buttons up top? Write out your responses in the quote, then highlight them and click one of those to set your text apart.

I'll give you an example:

See what I mean? See how your responses are easier to see?

Now you're making a little more sense with what you're presenting. I think you got your feathers all ruffled when Mike dropped on the table that you'd given no evidence that you are not a poseur... trust me, we've had folks in here trying to fake military experience, medical certs, you name it- so him honestly questioning your status was not meant to be an insult, but rather intended to protect those who truly hold the cred if you catch my drift. And then y'all turned this thread into monkey-ping-pong. I know why Mike did... but I'm not sure why you responded in kind, to be honest.

Wendy

CO EMT-B

Ahhh seriously I thought you replying in my defense!!

Otherwise I wouldn't have been so nice!! Sheeesh...

I'd take the time to "highlight" and "bold" things for you, but truth be told, I'm just responding to Mike's (not me the other one's) remarks...

Well I can appreciate trying to find out someone's credentials... There are other more 'civil' ways to do that though!! And yes Mike Is a knucklehead, But I can't say the actual name on post, wouldn't be too polite!!

But I guess as the "New Guy" I wouldn't know much about that would I? (According to knucklehead over there!)

[Eydawn]

Man, you just don't take a hint, do you.

If you perpetuate name-calling, and insist that Paramedicmike was not civil in legitimately questioning your status, then you're kind of a lost cause... and while you may be replying to him only, there are others of us reading your posts, hence the more than kind tutorial I just gave you.

If you're going to post multiple responses to multiple points within a quote dialogue box, as a courtesy to the entire forum, PLEASE use the techniques I just gave you.

Have a good night.

Wendy

CO EMT-B

[EMT12]

Man, you just don't take a hint, do you.

12: I thought it was weird that you were coming to my aid!! Oh wait isn't medicMike your butt buddy?

12: HInt? what hint? wanna be more clear about that? I can't read or speak stupid!!!

If you perpetuate name-calling, and insist that Paramedicmike was not civil in legitimately questioning your status, then you're kind of a lost cause... and while you may be replying to him only, there are others of us reading your posts, hence the more than kind tutorial I just gave you.

12: No, the only lost cause is trying to talk civil to Knucklehead.... The lost cause would be you trying to intervene... Tutorial? Nice word, do you even know what that means?

12: Correct, I was only replying to Knucklehead 00 over there, but I can take a hint, she's your GF, that's fine!!

12: I noticed on your post that your 24? Are you sure you should be debating a complicated topic without parental consent?

If you're going to post multiple responses to multiple points within a quote dialogue box, as a courtesy to the entire forum, PLEASE use the techniques I just gave you.

12: Nah, see I like pissing bitches and dicks like you and lousy knucklehead mike off, makes it more enteraining. Plus I get a kick out of watching morons like you respond in such "fashion".... Courtesy my ass, you haven't shown me any courtesy!! Nor has knucklehead!! You talk about letigimacy in credentials? I wanna see your credentials, are you even involved in EMS? I meant other then the Lesbian services!! And Knucklehead, I can't believe they let her become a Medic, guess it goes to show you how little brain cells are needed for Med school!!

Have a good night.

12: You too, please tell soft feathered kunckle head night too!! I'm sure she's waiting for you in bed!!!

12: Did I ruffle your feathers? Or was that just knuckleheads?

Wendy

CO EMT-B

[Eydawn]

Ok. The gloves come off now.

NOW, I am calling into question your status as a martial artist. The people I know who bear that title have a lot more restraint and discipline than to rocket off with massive amounts of vulgarity after someone responds to them with civil posts.

You've been reported to admin. Methinks there be an odor of troll floating here. Either delete the post and do something to redeem yourself, or off you go...

By the by, we don't hold well with ageism here. Yes, I'm 24- but if you ask those who have been around longer than a week and a half, most refused to believe my age when I was 19 based on my intellectual presentation. The median guess was 38.

Wendy

CO EMT-B

[Lone Star]

First off, EMS isn't a 'full contact sport'. If you're finding yourself in a position to inflict bodily injury to your patients, then you've certainly failed at scene size-up/scene safety, and if you’re deriving pleasure from such actions; you really should consider a line of work that allows you to use those skills.

Having to resort to incendiary type postings does nothing to add credence/credibility to your post or topic. Attacking those who can logically show you the errors of your premise does nothing to improve the already poor impression you’ve made in your first few posts in these forums!

Most of your postings and replies have been incoherent, poorly written and formatted; and are difficult (if not impossible) to follow at best.

You give the general impression that you’re nothing more than a thug and a bully; and IF you ARE trained in martial arts, you’ve definitely lost perspective of the ki of the whole concept of martial arts. IF you DO have martial arts training, you’re only practicing for the ‘ass kicking ability’, not the honor that is associated with the ‘arts’.

As far as ‘courtesy’ is concerned; it is earned, like respect. You’ve shown no courtesy to either Paramedicmike, Dustdevil or Eyedawn; how can you expect them to show it to you?

Resorting to name calling because someone disagrees with your perspective is neither mature nor intelligently arguing your point in a debate. It only results in hostility and a degradation of communication. To this point, I’ve noticed that you’re the ONLY one who has resorted to this tactic; which calls your communication skills into question. This would explain how you keep finding yourself in a position to have to resort to fisticuffs while on a call.

[Country EMT Girl]

If there was ever a scene where it went from safe to unsafe, that's when you do something they call EVACUATE. Til the police can arrive and get the situation under control. Martial Arts is not for EMS at all. In Nebraska and I'm sure that it may be different in other places but anyway. You are not allowed to use force unless Law Enforcement is there and they are assisting you. Hence is why on all our medical calls Law enforcement is on the location with us.

Martial Arts have been define in many websites that it is another term for art of combat or war. It is a Kill or Be Killed mentality sport. It is a sport where you seriously injure your opponent. Now that being said is it not the MORAL and ETHICAL Behavior of EMS is to FIRST DO NO HARM. Now if you are going to situations where the is the potential of a scene being unstable than Shouldn't you are an Educated individual take it upon your self to call in for Law enforcement. If you continue to have the unstable areas maybe your Director should meet with The Sheriff or Police Chief to set up a policy that on every 911 call then an Officer would show up on scene to secure it.

[Lone Star]

Having worked the 'inner city' and suburbs of metro Detroit, I have yet to find a situation where I've ever had to try to justify kicking the shit out of a patient!

I've had a couple calls where I've backed out and called for a cruiser, but even on the involuntary committals, I've rarely had to rely on Law Enforcement to stabilize a situation.

This may be in part becase I've treated my patients with respect, dignity and compassion; but on top of that, I've paid careful attention to scene/personal safety. If it "didn't feel right", we didn't go in until it was deemed 'safe' to do so.

The worst injury I've recieved from a patient was getting kicked in the face by a 92 year old granny with dementia. She asked that we put her slippers on before we took her to the truck, and apparently 'forgot' why we were there.

Yes, I've worked shootings, overdoses and even worked in some of the more 'hostile areas' (like the Cass Corridor, also locally known as 'Blood Alley).

[FireMedic65]

If Chuck Norris were a paramedic, no one would ever get sick in fear of making him work and kicking their ass.

When I went through medic school, we had a non-mandatory one night "self defense" class. It was nothing more than how to get yourself away if shit went sour. Yes, scene safety is key and we should never enter a bad situation. But sometimes they present themselves out of no where. It never happened to me, but it could. Would I stay and fight? No, I would get away any way I could.

But making martial arts training mandatory is silly. Focus on how to make the patient better NOT worse.

Edited April 10, 2011 by FireMedic65