Patients, Guns, and EMS

[FireMedic65]

Very true, but what if this person had the gun illegally? Would that change my treatment, no of course not. But I would still inform police. Unless, of course, like it your situation and I knew the person in question.

Removing a gun from a holster and unloading it is not rocket science. Look at some people that do carry guns, I am surprised they are able to walk and breath at the same time. So, I would not wait for police to secure that weapon, but I would tell them I am.

[scubanurse]

My first question Kate why do you carry a gun. Im asking because in my mind people that are in fear, live in a place where there is alot of violence, or hunt carry guns. I cant fathom a young lady like yourself carring a gun without reason. And Im not asking to make it an issue its just a plain question.

[...]

This is a real good question and has made me think about it thanks kate

I have my reasons for carrying, and I pose this question to you.

Have you ever been walking to your car late at night and seen someone walking near you...dark parking lot late at night. I have, and I have felt safer knowing I could defend myself if needed.

And thanks I like making people think.

I discovered a Glock 9mm on a patient after an auto accident. Fortunately, we were still on scene and police were close by. I simply called over the officer, pointed to the weapon and let the cop remove/unload it.

Two of my coworkers at one point, however, completely missed the weapon. It was discovered upon transfer of care in the trauma bay when a tech removed the patient's cut jeans from the board and the pistol hit the floor. They had a hard time explaining that one. The tough part was that they actually did a pretty thorough assessment. Clothes had been completely cut and the patient was trauma naked. To this day they're still not sure just where it had been concealed.

exactly... guns are small these days, the one I carry is a Kimber Solo, weighing 19oz, and just over 5" long total length and barley an inch thick... It hides easily.

[Quakefire]

Personally if police were on scene they would be removing the weapon, if not I would prefer to remove it from the pt. I have an issue with giving a firearm to a friend on scene as I in general don't want to arm a potential aggressor. I have zero training in firearms which also makes this an interesting question. Handguns are illegal in Canada and as such any finding of a concealed hand gun would require the police.

[Happiness]

I have my reasons for carrying, and I pose this question to you.

Have you ever been walking to your car late at night and seen someone walking near you...dark parking lot late at night. I have, and I have felt safer knowing I could defend myself if needed.

And thanks I like making people think.

To be honest I grew up in Victoria but have lived in 2 small communities for the past 25 years. When I was a kid we played in the parking lots, Iv gone down the dark alleys many times but I have to say that I have never ever thought of carrying a gun. I ran a bar here for 6 years and have had to throw out many, had people threaten me and say some pretty nasty things, but again I have never felt the need for a gun. I guess I have been very lucky in not living where people have that fear of others.

Here is a cute story. My middle son who was always very aware of the elderly would always carry their groceries to their car and those types of things. He moved to Vancouver and tried to do this there only to discover they dont like their groceries taken to their cars without swinging the bags at the nice young man trying to help. The good thing is that he keeps on doing it because he likes people. I find it sad in this world that we have to always be aware of the bad things that can happen to us from others.

[Bieber]

So you would handle an unknown weapon? What if it discharged while in your "custody"?

If I or my partner felt comfortable unloading the weapon, we would; otherwise, I would simply hold it by the handle, barrel always pointed in a safe direction, and place it in the lockbox. I go shooting from time to time, which hardly makes me an expert, but I take gun safety very seriously and wouldn't do anything I wasn't comfortable doing. If it discharged while in my custody, that would be disastrous. Beyond disastrous, even. It's not something I would ever want to have happen to me. I'm not sure, though, though, what other balance can be reached when it comes to not leaving a weapon unattended to on scene and taking care of my patient--which is my first and foremost priority. I don't feel comfortable leaving an unattended weapon on scene, but I absolutely cannot jeopardize my patient care for any other reason than for my own safety and the safety of others.

[JPINFV]

as well as having the proper equipment to clear the weapon.

Err, which pistols in standard civilian use require a special piece of equipment to clear?

I have my reasons for carrying, and I pose this question to you.

Have you ever been walking to your car late at night and seen someone walking near you...dark parking lot late at night. I have, and I have felt safer knowing I could defend myself if needed.

And thanks I like making people think.

I can one up that. Half past midnight, walking to my car in the parking structure after studying late at school and walked up on a guy who had broken into my car 3 minutes earlier and was still sitting in my front seat. Thankfully, it was my car and not the female student who had parked one floor above me (the only car above mine too). If I stood even a small chance of getting both a CCW permit and permission to carry on campus, I would in a heart beat. As the cliche goes, when seconds count, the police are minutes away. Additionally, there is ample case law stating that the police are not responsible to protect you. That means the only person who is responsible for protecting you is you, yourself, and, I personally, would rather be an armed survivor than an unarmed victim.

So you would handle an unknown weapon? What if it discharged while in your "custody"?

I would. I honestly don't think that it would be too hard for someone familiar with fire arms to clear one in a safe manner. Keep the finger off the trigger, be careful if you're manipulating the hammer (e.g. on my Father's .22 revolver, it has to be half cocked to rotate the cylinder), and never point it at anything you aren't willing to destroy, and you should be fine. Personally, I'd be more concerned with a fire arm of unknown status laying around someplace than trying to unload it myself.

Edited April 14, 2011 by JPINFV

[PCP]

This is a interesting question. As Happiness posted I call for the RCMP and have them remove the gun, as I am not trained to deal with guns as a paramedic. There has been a case where a patient was brought inside of an ambulance and when asked to undo his coat so they could check for further injuries, he declined. After attempting multiple times for him to remove his coat, the paramedic requested the RCMP cst. to assist him in the back in removing the coat. When the coat was removed there sat a gun in the guys waist band.

This is not normal practice where I live. People only carry guns for a few reasons, Hunting, or shooting people to pertect their drugs and if you are carrying a gun in your vehicle it can not be loaded. I just don't understand why someone needs to carry a gun. Sure you may feel safer doing so, but bad things can happen when carrying a gun. The wrong person may get a hold of it while you fight with them and then what? Either you get shot or someone else gets shot.

Different places have different rules I guess, but I just don't see the reasoning behind it. If you don't feel safe, maybe take some self defence classes.

Kate, this post is not directed at you in any way, as you have every right to carry a gun with you. Since I live in Canada where it is not normal for people to be carrying guns I am ignorant when it comes to this subject, but I am happy that the genral puplic does not carry guns in Canada.

[JPINFV]

but bad things can happen when carrying a gun. The wrong person may get a hold of it while you fight with them and then what? Either you get shot or someone else gets shot.

...but bad things happen to people who don't carry a gun too. If the wrong person gets a hold of a gun, that just means that the innocent victim should have fired sooner. If you (generic "you") have a problem with shooting bad guys, then don't carry for the reason PCP elaborated on. If you carry a weapon, you have to be prepared to take a life. As far as someone else getting shot, I'm perfectly happy with bad guys being shot after attacking, or making a move towards, a victim. In fact, if someone is shot robbing a house, the criminal's estate should have to pay for the clean up.

Quick question PCP, what are you going to do between being attacked and the police arriving?

[scubanurse]

I think the idea that we are not trained to handle guns comes into play here. Does a basic know how to intubate through practicing on the dummies at the station? Maybe, does that mean they can safely do it in the field? Possibly, does that mean they should? Not likely.

I have grown up around guns, I can clear probably 99% of the guns you will find in the public without hesitating to figure it out. But while on duty as a paramedic/emt/ambulance driver, that is not in your job description.

In my opinion after speaking to a few different cops who have POST certs, they recommend leaving in place, calling enroute to hospital and the police officer removing the weapon prior to bringing into the hospital.

Most CCW are holstered and so sometimes better left in place, and if we have to remove for patient care, they suggested if police were not on scene or in the unit, to remove the holster as a whole and lock in the lock box.

What you have to do is think almost worst case scenario. Yes this person is hurt, but was this gun used in a crime? If so, chain of custody plays a big role in what you do with the weapon.

[Happiness]

...but bad things happen to people who don't carry a gun too. If the wrong person gets a hold of a gun, that just means that the innocent victim should have fired sooner. If you (generic "you") have a problem with shooting bad guys, then don't carry for the reason PCP elaborated on. If you carry a weapon, you have to be prepared to take a life. As far as someone else getting shot, I'm perfectly happy with bad guys being shot after attacking, or making a move towards, a victim. In fact, if someone is shot robbing a house, the criminal's estate should have to pay for the clean up.

Quick question PCP, what are you going to do between being attacked and the police arriving?

First of all I have no problem with dealing with firearms as I have had enough training in my Military stint,I was at that time a marksman and had great aim, in fact I would not have a problem shooting someone if needed. But thats me. And I agree with your statement.

I would like to answer the question posed to PCP for myself. I have truly never felt so threaten anywhere I have been to warrent carring a gun. Lucky yes but I also do not act like a potential victim. When I go to Vancouver and visit the boys we do go downtown, my head is held high, I walk with dignity (if you can get that)and I look people in the eye when I pass them. There are those people that appear to be potential victims. I also do kickboxing and have for years so I personally dont think I would be singled out for an attack. So with all of that being said if I was being attacked Im not so sure I would get a gun out fast enough, take off the saftey to defend myself. I think I would have a better chance kicking, screaming ect. Living in Canada is so different than is the states even though we share alot of the same values.

I have a cousin that was raped very violently 20 years ago. Her and her family were going home from a family dinner in their neighbourhood. Warm summer evening, they stopped at the sign and some guy was in bush. He ran up and put a gun to her head, dragged her out of the car, yelled at the husband that if he moved she would be killed. This man raped her and then he ran off. They went and did all the after stuff with the hospital and cops. They did catch the guy and to this day he is still in jail. When her father found out about the attack he went and bought her a gun. She never carried it even though she was good shot and had learned how to use it and the reason she didnt is because she honestly didn't think it would have made a difference. She is a pretty amazing lady and to this day still goes to parol hearings to keep this guy in jail and she say's her story.

I dont think it is wrong if it makes you feel safe, but I guess I just dont get it.