Union and EMS

[ambodriver]

Just who do you think you are negotiating against?

Collective bargaining in a public sector, you are negotiating against yourselves as well as every person in the county because who is paying your salary? The county which equates to the taxpayer base which is yourself and everyone in your service.

It's not like you are negotiating against a employer who has a select demographic that they sell to and you negotiate against them, you are negotiating against the county or the city which you are getting your wages and pensions and all that paid for by the tax payers therefore you ARE negotiating against yourselves.

See how that works?

I'm not knocking you on your benefits and your wages.

Have you ever been upset with the county or city government paying high salaries to other city workers? Like the 30 per hour that the street cleaners make, or the 25.00 per hour that the guys holding signs up directing traffic around construction zones?

I see where you are going with this. Those jedi mind tricks won't work on me. No, I don't get mad at what others make. I am obviously not bitter and jealous like you. Those union bargained wages have created the middle class in Chicago. Without them, a good chunk of this cities middle class would disappear. I guess people deserve low wages for hard work. I guess people shouldn't be financially secure. Lets just exploit all our workers right?

Are you saying that Paramedics deserve to work for crummy privates that pay just above minimum wage, horrible benefits and being able to be fired at a whim? You enjoy raising your family in a poor area of Chicago where they can get shot on the way to school?

Sorry my friend, I started in the privates, and struggled. You sound like a politican--lets take away the pay! They don't deserve it!

I am an EMS professional---and I get paid professional wages.

Without a union on our side to bargain we would be contracted EMS like the Chicago 'burbs, making poverty level wages at the whim of some irate resident.

You anti-union ranting is illogical and counter productive to the livelihood of most EMS professionals.

Low pay and benefits is the reason we lose our brightest medics.

[Just Plain Ruff]

I see where you are going with this. Those jedi mind tricks won't work on me. No, I don't get mad at what others make. I am obviously not bitter and jealous like you. Those union bargained wages have created the middle class in Chicago. Without them, a good chunk of this cities middle class would disappear. I guess people deserve low wages for hard work. I guess people shouldn't be financially secure. Lets just exploit all our workers right?

Are you saying that Paramedics deserve to work for crummy privates that pay just above minimum wage, horrible benefits and being able to be fired at a whim? You enjoy raising your family in a poor area of Chicago where they can get shot on the way to school?

Sorry my friend, I started in the privates, and struggled. You sound like a politican--lets take away the pay! They don't deserve it!

I am an EMS professional---and I get paid professional wages.

Without a union on our side to bargain we would be contracted EMS like the Chicago 'burbs, making poverty level wages at the whim of some irate resident.

You anti-union ranting is illogical and counter productive to the livelihood of most EMS professionals.

Low pay and benefits is the reason we lose our brightest medics.

yet your Dark Sith mind tricks will not work on me Young Jedi!

You sound like a dyed in the wool Union supporter of which I have absolutely no issue with. I also started in the privates and made 5.25 per hour as an EMT. I then ended up in the private service I refer to below making 60K as a medic. I made that money without Union support. I guess if I had a union I'd be making 80K. I guess we needed to have a union but we did all right without one.

I'm not at all saying that you take away the pay but I'm saying that you should not be negotiating against the public who have no say in the matter at all.

The public cannot say "Hey, that's not right that we don't get a say in your pay"

But I am not in any way going to sway you to change your mind on your end and you won't change my mind.

And I concede your point - low pay and crappy benefits IS one of the reasons that we lose the brightest medics.

And I'm not ranting against the unions, you will see that I am only pointing out the disparities of collective bargaining but I'm not sure that you will see my point so let's agree to disagree.

But I do have many friends who work for private services that are making 60K a year or more and they don't have a union to get them all that money. Perish the thought that a non-union service can make that much.

You make it seem like without unions all EMS workers would be in the poorhouse. It's not that way in some areas.

I'm not saying that unions don't have their place but I am saying that bargaining against your fellow citizens who do NOT have a say in how EMS salaries are set makes the bar set unfair.

Just my opinion and I know you and I disagree big time on this.

And let's not let this get personal.

Edited June 29, 2011 by Ruffems

[ambodriver]

Well I should add that the reality I speak of exists only in my area. I am not sure how privates do elsewhere. I am ignorant on that. I am glad others have found good jobs that they can support families on w/o being union. That is great, and I further advocate more pay and benefits to my paramedic and/or firefighter brothers union or not union.

However, in the Chicago area, unions have paved the way for the middle class.

Would I prefer to not have to pay union dues and receive all the bennies the unions helps provide us with? You betcha! However in my area that is not a possibility.

I am blinded by how it works in the Chicago land area.

There are only two options in this area for EMS personnel

Non-union positions: poverty wages

Union positions excellent pay and bennies.

If other people in the country make it w/o unions and make respectable wages I am happy for them and would even say they don't need union representation.

Nothing personal friend

[Just Plain Ruff]

Well I should add that the reality I speak of exists only in my area. I am not sure how privates do elsewhere. I am ignorant on that. I am glad others have found good jobs that they can support families on w/o being union. That is great, and I further advocate more pay and benefits to my paramedic and/or firefighter brothers union or not union.

However, in the Chicago area, unions have paved the way for the middle class.

Would I prefer to not have to pay union dues and receive all the bennies the unions helps provide us with? You betcha! However in my area that is not a possibility.

I am blinded by how it works in the Chicago land area.

There are only two options in this area for EMS personnel

Non-union positions: poverty wages

Union positions excellent pay and bennies.

If other people in the country make it w/o unions and make respectable wages I am happy for them and would even say they don't need union representation.

Nothing personal friend

Yet you called me a politician - Them thar's fightin werds!!! just kiddin

But seriously, I hear you about the chicago area. I have EMT and medic friends living up there and without their wife working or spouse working, they'd be really hurting.

Truly there are other areas in the country who require unions in order to protect the workers rights, they require unions to provide equitable benefits and the like, but I am against collective bargaining. I'm NOT against unions in general.

Let me ask you this, do you think that the high wages that unions negotiate for any industry have a direct result in the cost of the service provided?

My heart does indeed go out those people in EMS who do not make a livable wage. It's a travesty. Maybe unions are needed to reduce this inequity but the EMS service in my area makes about 25$ per hour based on what one of the medics I talked to told me.

He said that the union was going back and gonna ask for more money. I have a problem with that. I have no way of going to the City and saying "you are paying this job too much" because my city council is the one who does the negotiating with the union and I have no say.

I do have a say about which car I buy and I have a say about what appliance or whatever union made product that I want to buy because they are not negotiating against the public, they are negotiating against a private employer and I can choose to patronize that private employer but I don't have the option of patronizing a different EMS provider or Fire department.

Does that make sense?

If you want we can take this to PM's, I think we have a lot more to discuss.

Your call.

[Richard B the EMT]

FDNY EMS Command has a separate union, also in DC 37 AFSCME (see my previous posting) for the Uniformed Lieutenants and Captains. I am mentioning this, because I saw my former Lieutenant (I'm a retiree, ya know) escorting a newly minted Lieutenant. I asked him if he was acting as a Field Training Officer (FTO). He answered to the negative, he's just an assigned "Mentor". "FTO's" get paid for the status.

I feel sure that both his and my union are working on correcting that "problem".

[BushyFromOz]

Man, obviously there is some serious differences in the industrial climate than you guys are exposed to, here, and as Kiwi said, i couldn't fathom being an ambo without being a part of the union.

Our union doesn't just function as point for collective bargaining once ever 4 years, which is just as well because quite frankly the feds have stacked industrial legislation against emplyees when it comes to bargaining and the union is quite often unable to flex muscle like it did 20 years ago.

The rest of the time, and thank goodness it does, it usually serves to "keep the bastards honest" as the agreement prohibits the service from bringing in policy that has effects on its staff without consultation with us and the union. When i say policy i dont necessarily mean operational life and death decision policy, but those ridiculous non-sensical ones, like trying to introduce a new format for rest breaks, trying to place students at single officer branches, trying to introduce new equipment without proper training on it's use. Quite often they act as like a pseudo OH&S represnetative or state government lobbyist or whistle blower in public media and provide legal support when some asshole in management tries to stitch one of us up.

They cant really advance us professionally, but boy they sure do keep them accountable and maintain what we still have left.

[Just Plain Ruff]

I was doing some thinking last night on this and I do see the unions point of collective bargaining.

I can imagine that my position might be different if I was represented by a union that kept getting me more money each year, year after year. I would probably be singing a different tune if the benefits kept increasing and the only thing I had to do was to pay union dues. i would probably be singing a different tune if I was making 25 to 30 dollars an hour.

but the reality in mind is that I am against the collective bargaining part of the union.

I've said my piece in posts above so I won't go there again.

Thank goodness I've semi retired and don't have to worry about that aspect of the job and can work a shift for the shear fun of it and not have to worry where my next meal or mortgage payment is coming from. That's what my full time job is for. (I only wonder what a union could do for a 3rd party consulting company?)