Discrimination Against Gays

[HotelCo]

But let me ask everyone this, this is the time of year that alot of fire departments do boot drives for various charities, or may even participate in things like Relay for Life, special olympics, or some type of camp for disabled kids, while wearing your department's uniform. If the same people wore their uniform to a gay pride rally, would they be fired ???? Most definitely.

that's a problem with society, and our field, not with homosexuality.

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[Just Plain Ruff]

Right on hotel. The problem is that we are so hung up on labels. If I want to march in my uniform in a pro life rally then the gay members or non gay members should be able to march in uniform at a gay rights parade.

If you fire the gay pride walkers then you have to fire those walking in the pro life parade. It would save so much stress if what you did in your free time off the clock was your own thing.

But when you are forced by a department to march in either.of the examples above, then that's an issue.

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[DwayneEMTP]

Ok, I am the bad guy, great. Let's walk through a little scenario that i think most of you have been through: It is Christmas or Thanksgiving at the station and we all have to work. We decide to have a feast with our families and loved ones, so we all bring a dish and cook a huge feast, and have a grand old time. Now it is over and time for everyone to go home, Dwayne gives his wife or girlfriend a nice kiss on the lips as she leaves the station, no big deal. I give my man a kiss on the lips, still no big deal ? What if your kids are there, still no big deal ?

Yeah, I'd have no issue with it. It would be a challenge perhaps to explain it to my autistic son, but so are many things in the world and this would pose me no significantly additional burden.

The problem here when we try and have an open and honest dialog is that we suppose that you would be kissing your mate as I would be kissing mine. In a socially appropriate manner and place. That has not been my experience with homosexual males in general. Why lesbians, again in my experience, should show better taste and be more socially appropriate is a mystery to me. But more often than not the kissing would be exaggerated and in a place where people would be forced to watch it as the center of attention. Again, as with your article being biased and unhealthy for gays and non gays alike, too often such a display of affection would be meant to make me prove my willingness to allow any type of behavior so that 'you can be you' as opposed to simply being a display of affection for your mate.

Kiss your mate in view of my son, (now again, we're still talking about a holiday family/work situation and not a concert or such where a different standard would apply), and I will explain to him about love, relationships and homosexuality. Suck face and grope in front of him to prove that you have the right to do so and I'll punch you in the face for being sexually inappropriate in front of children. Same warning to the hetero couples out there or course.

You seem to be set on proving that we will not allow the existence of same sex relationships in our field. Myself, like many others here have tried to show that we could care less. But, in my experience, which is relatively vast when compared with many that I know, it's not the relationship but the large dramatic 'gay parade' behavior subset of gays that gives many issues. You seem to imply that one can't exist without the other, as with your screen name, and I refuse to accept that. The need to have the attention directed towards them at all times...that is a choice, not a biological mandate, and it gets tiring.

Just a few days ago I was at training where there are several hundred people around outside during breaks. There was a big black man there, barefoot, pant legs rolled up to mid calf like peddle pushers, headband pulling his hair back, very exaggerated feminine body movements....no matter where he would speak in the outside areas you were forced to listen as he did so at full volume. Any time a group would gather, whether to smoke or just bullshit about their classes he would get near and begin singing beautifully, but loudly. No, this is not a concert, but a national, professional training center.

One of the medics there said, "Man, I hope I never get stuck on a rig with him...." not meaning to be overheard, but evidently was by someone as this man soon came over and wanted to fight for being disrespected as a gay may. He wasn't, he was exposed to what should have been the expected reaction for being an irritating, antagonistic, unprofessional, immature child. Should my son choose choose such a person as a mate, would it then be your opinion that I am simply anti gay when I dislike him? And yet it is his opinion that you want for your article, excluding those that were exposed to him? Him, that will scream of being disrespected as a gay that you want to add to your poll? Crazy.

Too often it seems that the gay message isn't "I'm here, I'm queer, get used to it." but "I'm here, I'm queer, so I can now do anything, say anything, behave in any fashion and have the right to call you intolerant and hateful should you EVER find me to be distasteful!" Way harder to put on a Tshirt I know...Too often people claim to want equality but really want a free ride from any responsibility to at least give a nod to social norms.

Like the black/white, men/women, Muslim/non Muslim, etc.. issues. If we're ever going to truly look for solutions to allow people to live whole, happy, fulfilled lives, we have to stop with the bullshit and get real.

Dwayne

[hatelilpeepees]

Well said again Dwayne, but I have to point out that in my neck of the woods, when the redneck firemen gather at our "state training facility", they often sing (country songs), wear clothing that I would say is inappropriate for a training session (tshirt), and often engage in behaviors I hate like chewing and spitting tobacco into a cup or on the ground. I am starting to see what flaming is trying to say. Imagine a loud redneck in his camo baseball cap, stained t-shirt, worn out blue jeans, and cowboy boots, who is spitting tobacco juice all over the place, and showing off his third grade education through his ignorant speech. Isn't that behavior worse than what you described from the gay guy you encountered ? You have to admit it is similar. And I have been in many a public place where I wanted to suggest that a hetero-couple go get a hotel room, because of the level they are making out at in public.

Edited May 22, 2011 by hatelilpeepees

[DwayneEMTP]

Well said again Dwayne, but I have to point out that in my neck of the woods, when the redneck firemen gather at our "state training facility", they often sing (country songs), wear clothing that I would say is inappropriate for a training session (tshirt), and often engage in behaviors I hate like chewing and spitting tobacco into a cup or on the ground. I am starting to see what flaming is trying to say. Imagine a loud redneck in his camo baseball cap, stained t-shirt, worn out blue jeans, and cowboy boots, who is spitting tobacco juice all over the place, and showing off his third grade education through his ignorant speech. Isn't that behavior worse than what you described from the gay guy you encountered ? You have to admit it is similar. And I have been in many a public place where I wanted to suggest that a hetero-couple go get a hotel room, because of the level they are making out at in public.

No, I don't think it's worse, but certainly no better. But what I do think is different is that these guys went to a knuckle dragger convention, more or less. A place where they had reason to believe that they would be in a large group of their peers. They were not there to draw attention to themselves from outside groups, but to do so within the established group. See? And to tolerate it at a state training facility is why I have so little respect for firemen. Again, this unprofessional behavior is not limited to firemen, it's just too often a well deserved stereotype.

Also, I know that if I go to a fireman function I am going to be exposed to such knuckle dragging behavior, which I really hate. So I don't go. The same for the Gay Pride parade in any given city. I expect flamboyant, exaggerated behavior there, and certainly feel no right or need to attempt to mitigate that behavior in either instance, so I stay away. But it seems that Flaming's point is that should I choose to go to one, or the other, that the masses should then adjust their behavior to suit me, despite me being the one that is different from the majority.

You do notice that when I asked Flaming if I got a job at a gay bar if the stereotypical gay behavior would then have to stop to keep from offending me, that he didn't reply? Making the entire environment have to change to suit the behavior of one, and one that is often trying to be ostracized in order to make a point , seems to be the sole privilege of the gay male. Again, we're speaking of the groups that this applies to, and I refuse to pretend that I am confusing anyone with this description.

Interesting conversation by some folks brave enough to talk about these taboo subjects! Pretty cool...perhaps things can change if more people will sack up (or...hmmm...not sure what the female equivalent would be.. labia up just doesn't seem to make the same point) and speak to those that are different from them instead of keeping the dialog withing the groups where they can be confident of agreement.

Thanks for playing all...

Dwayne

[TylerHastings]

Kiss your mate in view of my son, (now again, we're still talking about a holiday family/work situation and not a concert or such where a different standard would apply), and I will explain to him about love, relationships and homosexuality. Suck face and grope in front of him to prove that you have the right to do so and I'll punch you in the face for being sexually inappropriate in front of children. Same warning to the hetero couples out there or course.

Dwayne

Dwayne its funny that you bring this up. I have seen with my own two eyes a gay couple completely wipe the floor with another gay couple because they were doing this exact suck and grope in front of the their adopted children as well as the children of numerous others at this dinner. No one realized what going on but the two couples walked out after being told to take the argument outside. They did and this location had some french style doors (I guess thats what you would call them) that we could see through and both members of the offended couple just hay maker(ed?) the two offending parties. Now to the OP does that show some sort of bias or does this just show that some members of the Gay community are just rude crude and inappropriate? After having witnessed this I asked the couple would this have been the same result if I had done the same thing with my Girlfriend, they stated "No, we would have only clobbered you, we don't hit women." I can respect that but are you going to try to tell me that the gay couple had a gender discrimination problem?

Well said again Dwayne, but I have to point out that in my neck of the woods, when the redneck firemen gather at our "state training facility", they often sing (country songs), wear clothing that I would say is inappropriate for a training session (tshirt), and often engage in behaviors I hate like chewing and spitting tobacco into a cup or on the ground. I am starting to see what flaming is trying to say. Imagine a loud redneck in his camo baseball cap, stained t-shirt, worn out blue jeans, and cowboy boots, who is spitting tobacco juice all over the place, and showing off his third grade education through his ignorant speech. Isn't that behavior worse than what you described from the gay guy you encountered ? You have to admit it is similar. And I have been in many a public place where I wanted to suggest that a hetero-couple go get a hotel room, because of the level they are making out at in public.

While the situation you point out is similar amigo, I ask you is that not considered socially acceptable to most individuals in your area? Just because you don't agree with it doesn't mean that you can force your beliefs on these individuals.

Now as far as my thoughts on Gay work partners, I have no problem working gay guys/gals. In fact I work with a gay guy right now and he is a blast because he tries so hard from time to time to sound straight. My theory is that if your gay your choice, don't force it on me. A few summers ago I worked on a production at a small theatre in Hollywood that was put on by a FLAMING GAY however I had no problem with it because we respected each other and each other beliefs. I feel that is probably the biggest problem with the world today is a lack of respect for beliefs.

As mentioned in the other section, I am writing a column for JEMS about discrimination against gays (preferrably men) in our industry. I would really appreciate some of the older gay men in this forum who can contrast the old days versus today to show how much or how little we have progressed. Any private messages will be kept confidential. Thanks in advance.

You state that you are writing a column for JEMS about discrimination against gays. I am sorry but by your own admission in the post above this article is going to be guilty of what is called reverse discrimination when you state that you want replies from older gay men. Well then that leaves out lesbian women, straight women and straight men. I am sorry but your asking for a non representative sample and I don't care who you are or where your from but that would invalidate any data you might accrue were this to be a scientific study. You are taking a small minority sample out of a large number of subjects.

[hatelilpeepees]

I agree with what you all are saying, but I see a difference here. What we are talking about is "stereotypical behavior" of gays. Every group has a "sterotypical behavior", but it is accepted by most. The typical gay male is not "flaming", that is the stereo-type. An example of what I am trying to say: If you had a black guy report to duty at your fire station with dreads, gold in his mouth, listening to rap music on his IPOD, grabbing his crotch, with baggy jeans hanging off his ass, talking "street", nothing would be said as long as he is in proper uniform at the start of his shift. Drama queen white chic walks in dressed like a stripper, loudly argueing with boyfriend on cellphone, while applying her make-up, talking like a dumb blonde (like you know) nothing said. Gay guy sasheas (sorry had no idea how to spell it) in, flaming, snapping his fingers, singing YMCA, and talking super sweet, eyes will roll.

[flamingemt2011]

Dwayne I am sorry I missed your question in the previous post, I was not avoiding it. My answer would be no, the behavior should not change at either location, for you at the gay bar, or for me at work, WITHIN REASON. Obviously there are laws and rules at both that need to be adhered to, but I am claiming the rules are different for me, because I make you uncomfortable. Case in point: this may not apply to every employer, but if you get caught having heterosexual sex at work or while on the clock, you will probably face a write-up or suspension (assuming it is not forced or harassment), I on the other hand would be immediately fired for performing a homosexual sex act.

And here is another example; all of you have experienced the "religous freak" who feels the need to bless every meal at the station and lead you in prayer whether you want it or not. Do you tell him to shut up or punch him in the face for that behavior ?

[akflightmedic]

Dwayne I am sorry I missed your question in the previous post, I was not avoiding it. My answer would be no, the behavior should not change at either location, for you at the gay bar, or for me at work, WITHIN REASON. Obviously there are laws and rules at both that need to be adhered to, but I am claiming the rules are different for me, because I make you uncomfortable. Case in point: this may not apply to every employer, but if you get caught having heterosexual sex at work or while on the clock, you will probably face a write-up or suspension (assuming it is not forced or harassment), I on the other hand would be immediately fired for performing a homosexual sex act.

And here is another example; all of you have experienced the "religous freak" who feels the need to bless every meal at the station and lead you in prayer whether you want it or not. Do you tell him to shut up or punch him in the face for that behavior ?

Sex at work is a poor example...no one should be doing it while on the clock (except for a hooker)and I am pretty confident that all the places I worked it would not be treated lightly...gay, straight, or undetermined.

I do not allow anyone to lead me in prayer, if you allow that then you are willing so again a poor example. I speak up or I excuse myself or I sit after they do whatever they want to do. Yes I do tell them to keep it to themselves if none of the above work. Punch no, but again you are comparing apples to oranges...

[flamingemt2011]

Also note that I already have a "-2" rating just for asking questions. I dont think I have been rude to anyone in this room, but again, because I am different, I am judged and publicly given a negative rating.