Dustdevil Posted May 23, 2011 Posted May 23, 2011 (edited) To enroll in an A&P course at almost any college you need to first have taken general bio and general chemistry as pre-requisites. Traditionally these are all 8 credit two course sequences spanning 2 semesters. On what planet?? Got any links to these requirements? Either you are completely mistaken, or else you are basing this assumption upon a very limited sampling. I might have agreed with your dubious recommendation 25 years ago. But today, Basics are being given much more responsibility than they were in the 70s and 80s, including drug administration and invasive procedures. Today's First Responder is what the EMT was in the 80s. Do FRs need college A&P? No. But the EMT-B absolutely does, given the current scope of practice. Edited May 23, 2011 by Dustdevil
DwayneEMTP Posted May 23, 2011 Posted May 23, 2011 I do not see much reason for taking an A&P course for EMT school, but I would suggest one prior to Paramedic school. I think you should get into EMT, make sure you like it, then decide what other courses will benefit you. Lonestar, I see it was you that put the negative on this post. What was it about this post that you felt warranted that? I appears to me to be the most common advice out there, logical for most that haven't been party to the arguments and debates that we've had here, and not bad intentioned in any way. It had proper spelling and grammar, professed an opinion, and appeared to me to be trying to be helpful. I don't get it. Was it your intention to give a negative because you disagreed with this poster in other threads? Surely you get that it's bad form to give a post a negative simply because you disagree with it, regardless how strongly you disagree with it? Anyway, I'd be interested to hear you opinion/justification. Dwayne
uglyEMT Posted May 23, 2011 Posted May 23, 2011 (edited) To the OP... In my own opinion. Take the Basic course and see if you like what you are getting into. When I went through school in the first weeks everyone was all giddy about becoming an EMT. By Module 3 once we started getting into the nitty gritty of it, some just dropped out because it wasn't their cup of tea. By Mod 4 or 5 some dropped out because they couldn't stand the gore others failed out due to not passing muster when it came to the tests. We even had a few drop the course twords the end because they knew it wasn't for them. Unfortunate yes. I don't know about the Cali side of things but I joined a squad and the course was paid for by them so no out of pocket expense. I am currently applying for A&P courses from the local college because I feel it IS important as a provider to know these things. I learned here from Dwayne, Bieber, AK, Dust, ERDoc, and several others that education is paramount in our profession. Even Basics need to understand the body's functions and what glossing over you get in Basic class is woefully inadaquite. Yes they teach you the skeleton, major organs and placment, the O2 cycle and vascular system but not much else and not in much depth. I want to be the best provider I can and be the best patient advocate I can so that is why I am continuing my education. I will state at this point I have no intention of going beyond Basic BUT I do want to be the best Basic I can be. Dip your toes in the water and see if you like it, if you do get your cert, immediatly apply for A&P to get a firm grasp on the person you are helping. Plus if you are looking to go all the way and get your Medic cert A&P is a prereq anyways so you are just getting a step ahead anyways. edit for grammer and spelling Edited May 23, 2011 by UGLyEMT
donedeal Posted May 23, 2011 Posted May 23, 2011 On what planet?? Got any links to these requirements? Either you are completely mistaken, or else you are basing this assumption upon a very limited sampling. From Bunker Hill Community College in Boston, MA Anatomy and Physiology I is the first course in a two-semester sequence that will examine the systems of the human body using an integrated approach. Areas of study will include the structure and function of cells, histology, the physiological and anatomical aspects of support and movement systems and the nervous systems. Laboratory activities will enhance the students comprehension of the structure and function of the human body. Course meets: 3hrs. Lecture:3hrs. Lab Prerequisite: Grade of C or better in Principles of Biology I/Lab (BIO101), Human Biology (BIO108) or general Biology I/Lab (BIO195). From Salem State University in Salem, MA Number BIO 200 Title Anatomy and Physiology I Credits 4.0 Distribution DII Prerequisites BIO105 or an introductory Biology lab sequence; CHE124 or CHE130; or permission of the Department Chairperson Feel free to search the lengths of Harvard Ext School, UMASS, Quincy College and any other Metro Boston college or university and you'll find the same pre-reqs or very similar. I recently went through this sequence Bio I,II, Chem I,II, AP I,II--- it took me 1 full year and I studied and worked my arse off putting in 20+ hours a week (mostly on the chem). I challenge any one interested in becoming an emt-basic to take this sequence and then see if they still want to be an emt-basic making a pittance of a salary when theyre now qualified for entry to some PA schools, almost all nursing schools or 2 courses shy from medical school and the majority of the PA schools. What invasive procedures do emt-basics perform in which they have to understand the mechanisms in microbiology of rna, dna, mitosis, genetics, ect-- all of which are typically covered in great detail during the first semester of gen bio. A macro overview of mammalian anatomy is typically covered in the second semester of bio . Peruse through some syllabi from a general bio and general chem course from within the past 5 years, there's a lot more information being covered now then there was 30 years ago as well and students are being held to higher standards. You'll find most of the people in these classes have aspirations for high level positions in the medical field and some of whom already have their basic card and are moving on. I don't doubt there are some schools that provide a watered down AP course with no pre-requisites required in some parts of the country. In that case, by all means take these courses. In NO WAY whatsoever will it be a bad thing or interfere with your care as a basic provider. I am very pro-education, but as it stands now, becoming an EMT provides someone without a college degree the opportunity to hold a great position out in their community. You start adding all this degree creep and less and less people will be qualified. That's probably not a problem in some parts of the country, but in some parts it will be.
NYCEMS9115 Posted May 23, 2011 Posted May 23, 2011 Download the Human A&P.... http://emsseo.com/2011/01/free-ems-downloads/ It's a great cliffnote version... It's an awesome reference... Good Luck....
Lone Star Posted May 24, 2011 Posted May 24, 2011 Lonestar, I see it was you that put the negative on this post. What was it about this post that you felt warranted that? I appears to me to be the most common advice out there, logical for most that haven't been party to the arguments and debates that we've had here, and not bad intentioned in any way. It had proper spelling and grammar, professed an opinion, and appeared to me to be trying to be helpful. I don't get it. Was it your intention to give a negative because you disagreed with this poster in other threads? Surely you get that it's bad form to give a post a negative simply because you disagree with it, regardless how strongly you disagree with it? Anyway, I'd be interested to hear you opinion/justification. Dwayne I’ve watched you and others come down on the hapless poster who has advocated against higher educational requirements with both feet and wearing cleats, (I've still got those marks on the back of my skull!). Just like anyone else who encourages the ‘EMS hobbyist’ gets whacked when they make similar statements because of the inanity of rallying against higher educational requirements, I see no reason to afford flaming a free pass for the same behavior. Additionally, weren’t you one of the first to mention that his posting style mimicked that of a present/past member? Obviously you’re not the only one who has come to the same conclusion. That being said, if it IS a previous/past member just looking for trouble, then they have been exposed to the lengthy debates on the benefits of increasing educational requirements. That aside, just because it espouses the ‘popular general opinion’ doesn’t mean it gets a pass on taking a hit when it is CLEARLY giving poor advice to a prospective student.
DwayneEMTP Posted May 24, 2011 Posted May 24, 2011 ...I've watched you and others come down on the hapless poster who has advocated against higher educational requirements with both feet and wearing cleats, (I've still got those marks on the back of my skull!). Hopefully what you mean is that you've seen me argue against their logic to hold EMS back. I truly have no right to disrespect those with this opinion as it was my intention to take an AMR 7 month part time course until I was convinced differently here. Flaming has not received a single free pass from me, as you may have noticed, and yet he continues to post. I respect that. Perhaps it's my personal feeling, and thus off in the ditch, that the negatives should be reserved for those purposely giving poor advice or troll behavior? ...Just like anyone else who encourages the 'EMS hobbyist' gets whacked when they make similar statements because of the inanity of rallying against higher educational requirements, I see no reason to afford flaming a free pass for the same behavior. That is my point I guess. I don't feel that Flaming was 'rallying' against anything. You've seen that his history is with the fire dept, and our history here shows us that Fire has no respect for higher education, so why would you expect his opinions to be any different? He seemed to be, at least to me, to be saying, "you don't know what this is all about yet. Get your feet wet first and then decide if you want to invest your time in higher education." That seems like sound advice. Is it what many of us that have been here forever would like to see? No. But was it purposely detrimental? I don't think so. ...Additionally, weren't you one of the first to mention that his posting style mimicked that of a present/past member? Obviously you're not the only one who has come to the same conclusion. That being said, if it IS a previous/past member just looking for trouble, then they have been exposed to the lengthy debates on the benefits of increasing educational requirements. I could be wrong, but I don't believe that I was any part of the 'previous poster' stuff with Flaming. ...That aside, just because it espouses the 'popular general opinion' doesn't mean it gets a pass on taking a hit when it is CLEARLY giving poor advice to a prospective student. I get that. But was it his intention to purposely give poor advice or was he stating his opinion based on his experience? I equate the negative button with the 'Stink Eye'. Something that you hit someone with because they are simply being purposely shitty. You, the same as me, and many others, should understand that learning to post here has a significant learning curve. We need to not (in the words of Cheech and Chong of long ago) whack people's pee pees simply for mis-stepping, right? He started off in a tough spot, and yet instead of running away like many continued to post. I believe that if we're to be good guardians of the City that we encourage people to post, not only if we agree with them, but especially if we disagree with them as those arguments are what teach us and make us stronger. I'm guessing you've seen me be soundly handled on one or two topics but I can remember very few negatives. People simply beat me up with logic. :-) Just a thought brother. You and I went a few rounds, if i remember right, and I think I do, but I don't remember ever giving you a negative simply because I believed that you were posting from your beliefs, even though I thought them bullshit. Negatives should be kept, in my opinion, for the troll posts, the hateful posts, not for posts that we simply don't like..no matter the reason....see? Of course, this is all just my opinion... Dwayne
Lone Star Posted May 24, 2011 Posted May 24, 2011 Just a thought brother. You and I went a few rounds, if i remember right, and I think I do, but I don't remember ever giving you a negative simply because I believed that you were posting from your beliefs, even though I thought them bullshit. Negatives should be kept, in my opinion, for the troll posts, the hateful posts, not for posts that we simply don't like..no matter the reason....see? Of course, this is all just my opinion... Dwayne You remember correctly, we HAVE gone more than a 'few rounds'. I'll go this far, and try to be more judicious when hitting the "-" button...
chbare Posted May 24, 2011 Posted May 24, 2011 Donedeal, I must emphasise that many colleges will allow you to take A&P with instructor or department consent. Also, the biology and chemistry sequences offered through community colleges that are focused toward "non-technical" degrees are often known as "survey" courses and are not equivalent to the sequences that "science" majors are required to take. This is often true of physics courses as well. Many people will take algebra based physics when many of the "hard" science majors take calculus and analytical geometry, then take the two semester calculus based physics sequence. This was true of my current degree. I had to take algebra based physics and survey fluid dynamics, but this is not the same as an engineering student who has to calculate viscoelastic properties using the Navier-Stokes equations. Big difference IMHO. Take care, chbare.
Just Plain Ruff Posted May 24, 2011 Posted May 24, 2011 To enroll in an A&P course at almost any college you need to first have taken general bio and general chemistry as pre-requisites. Traditionally these are all 8 credit two course sequences spanning 2 semesters. I took anatomy and physiology as separate courses and I did not ahve general bio nor did I have general chemistry. I took the anat/phys classes at a well respected community college with a very very highly regarded paramedic program. Unfortunately, I didn't live in Kansas so I was passed over twice based on not being a instate school resident. But I took my pre-req's that the school required before I got into paramedic school on the Missouri side.
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