What do you carry?

[Nerd_Slayer]

You remind me of this guy:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1nbpw_hero-dwight_shortfilms

[tniuqs]

I’m sorry but none of this makes sense at all… Your occupation states you’re a “medic” yet on page 2 of this thread you state you run on an outreach first aid team? You state you carry pepper spray, tazers and handcuffs and you’re not a police officer? I’m sorry but I’m sure if a paramedic in Australia was carrying this sort of equipment they would be unemployed within 5 minutes.

I you cant walk into a situation and at least have an inkling that there’s even a small risk of people “throwing punches” then you should take a class on incident assessment. While I do admit on the RARE occasion someone can take you by surprise it surely wouldn’t warrant carrying all that around to every call…

Agreed Timmy, but you forgot quote: "people EMT" there is something phishy here the focus of these posts, perhaps SD you would best be served by MALLCOP City, the justification for the use of spray or tazers with a professional EMS provider's is preposterous this is why SAFE SCENE is taught just don't go in and run away is perfectly accepable form of self preservation besides the FACT "everyone has the right to refuse unsafe work" call the real authorities the have more than a 8 hour course on civilian arrest that course SHOULD have informed you of how much "shaky legal ground" that you are walking.

Low and behold! My partner and I were dispatched before the police or animal control. Wonderful system...

Low and behold .. an uncontrolled scene .. STAY in your TRUCK and wait for the authorities your not Ricky Rescue, or maybe I am incorrect ?

Tazer is safer than OC .. wrong wrong wrong ! Tazers are Safer than implementing Lethal Force, I would agree.

THIRTY-TWO U.S. citizens have died since the beginning of 2011. At least ONE CANADIAN and SIXTY-FOUR U.S. citizens, a Mexican (at the US border) and a Malian immigrant in Paris, France died in 2010 after they were tasered by police. One person has died in Britain. FIVE Australians, one Mexican and a Mali immigrant in France have died after they were tasered. According to Taser International, the taser had nothing to do with any of these deaths. According to Amnesty International (December 16, 2008), the taser has been identified as either a cause or contributing factor in at least 50 of them. That number would be higher; however medical examiners and coroners are often not impartial but are instead biased in favour of the Crown or, as has been shown, they are under tremendous pressure from - among others - Taser International, to make a particular finding.

The local RCMP here are not using tazers near as much or even carrying them these days because of the poor publicity and more paperwork than in a fatal shooting and good I say, just to many maggots on the streets anyway.

http://truthnottasers.blogspot.com/2008/04/what-follows-are-names-where-known.html

OC is safer or more effective ? incorrect again and OC is considered an "offensive / control" weapon with most Law enforcement agencies, in the continuum of force.

https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/204029.pdf

http://www.nopepperspray.org/health_hazards_of_pepper_spray_ncjm.htm

ASTHMATIC patients do NOT fair well, anyone with knowledge in animal control will tell you that a "goal focused animal" (including dogs/bears) will not be stopped. I use a shotgun when I am in high risk environments then again I have a LICENCE a 3 month mentor-ship in National Parks, a 300 lbs angry Black Bear in full charge is ass puckering and if the can of OC is used at that point its just to flavour the meat.

Had I not had my OC, that could have ended very differently.

A Lovely story but had you recognised that you were dealing with a domestic (Hatfield and McCoy) and the weapon was a dog. (ps an unsafe scene)You Sir Shock Doctor made an error in judgement, I predict that if your focus remains in the current tenor re: control of your rowdy patients you will become front page on newspapers.

What I do enjoy in this thread is the serious lack of recognition in understanding of the term satire, now back to my TV and more "COPS" and "Serve and Protect", and Worlds most scary Police chases .. got to get my FIX !

Late edit .. now a Martial Artist, 8 hour civilian arrest course, 100 hours of "Combat Training" an EMT B, packing OC and handcuffs working as a volly leader (with a hero complex) for a Church Group First Aid Outreach.

Priceless !

Edited July 14, 2011 by tniuqs

[ShockDoctor]

Tazer is safer than OC .. wrong wrong wrong ! Tazers are Safer than implementing Lethal Force, I would agree.

TASERs are very safe. In over a decade there have been only around fifty deaths associated with them (and the true cause to just about every one of those deaths is very debatable). Keep in mind perps dusted on PCP get tased then die, it was probably due to the PCP and not the TASER. How many people have died from trauma associated with fists, feet, clubs, and so on? Many more. Keep in mind your alternatives.

As for OC, it's actually universally placed very low on the Use-of-Force continuum; it's usually right above verbal commands. In fact, the second a suspect becomes uncooperative, the local authorities here are authorized to use OC before they can even begin throwing blows.

ASTHMATIC patients do NOT fair well, anyone with knowledge in animal control will tell you that a "goal focused animal" (including dogs/bears) will not be stopped. I use a shotgun when I am in high risk environments then again I have a LICENCE a 3 month mentor-ship in National Parks, a 300 lbs angry Black Bear in full charge is ass puckering and if the can of OC is used at that point its just to flavour the meat.

And I don't know what you think I posted, but I'm not routinely spraying asthmatic patients. If one wants to get combative with me, then I'll spray him. But I've only had to spray one person so far (you've read about him), and I don't think he was asthmatic. And if I ever see a Black Bear, I'll be declaring the scene unsafe, not chasing it with pepper spray.

A Lovely story but had you recognised that you were dealing with a domestic (Hatfield and McCoy) and the weapon was a dog. (ps an unsafe scene)You Sir Shock Doctor made an error in judgement, I predict that if your focus remains in the current tenor re: control of your rowdy patients you will become front page on newspapers.

As I previously stated, I went into the scene thinking it was safe (my partner also). The call went out as a dog bite, there was no indication that there was any sort of dispute. We arrived, everybody seemed calm, there was no sign of any dogs or unruley people... that changed, and that was my point. Had you been in my shoes, you would have made the same calls, except you wouldn't have the tools needed to control the situation once it turned. I don't think anyone would have handled that call differently.

[Paramagic]

I don't think anyone would have handled that call differently.

You seriously lack insight into your behaviour if you don't think that anyone would handle that situation in a different manner, even after being told by everyone how they would handle it sensibly. That goes beyond funny and into downright scary.

[tniuqs]

TASERs are very safe. In over a decade there have been only around fifty deaths associated with them (and the true cause to just about every one of those deaths is very debatable). Keep in mind perps dusted on PCP get tased then die, it was probably due to the PCP and not the TASER. How many people have died from trauma associated with fists, feet, clubs, and so on? Many more. Keep in mind your alternatives.

As for OC, it's actually universally placed very low on the Use-of-Force continuum; it's usually right above verbal commands. In fact, the second a suspect becomes uncooperative, the local authorities here are authorized to use OC before they can even begin throwing blows.

And I don't know what you think I posted, but I'm not routinely spraying asthmatic patients. If one wants to get combative with me, then I'll spray him. But I've only had to spray one person so far (you've read about him), and I don't think he was asthmatic. And if I ever see a Black Bear, I'll be declaring the scene unsafe, not chasing it with pepper spray.

As I previously stated, I went into the scene thinking it was safe (my partner also). The call went out as a dog bite, there was no indication that there was any sort of dispute. We arrived, everybody seemed calm, there was no sign of any dogs or unruley people... that changed, and that was my point. Had you been in my shoes, you would have made the same calls, except you wouldn't have the tools needed to control the situation once it turned. I don't think anyone would have handled that call differently.

ps you may want to watch the dog whisperer, dogs can sense fear.

Still awaiting if DwayneEMTP carries Winter or Summer windshield washer fluid, because in the right hands a spray bottle with the winter stuff is a well know to be a deadly deterrent to all cape wearing crime busters. <shush its a secret>

cheers

Edited July 14, 2011 by tniuqs

[ShockDoctor]

Did you read the link provided ? 672 deaths documented since 1983, 32 in the USA this year alone in the USA. The mitigating cirmstance's are that intoxication of cocaine, ETOH, meth, THC (lol) and then other cases no Drugs of Abuse were on board but the constant in the equation is TAZER ! Buddy your new but the rules of engagement in EMT City is experience based opinion backed by research not conjecture or anecdotal stories.

Druggies die in police custody all the time (even when they're not tased). The links you provided go to interest groups dedicated to abolish TASER use. Hardly reliable sources.

Glad I don't live in your county. The continuum of force is applicable to Law Enforcement .. YOUR JOB is not psuedo Law enforcement its Fist Aid (so you have stated) and dude I do not live or practice in the USA. We use things like descallation techniques, non threatening body posture, avoiding confrontational situation is uber optimal, agree with your patients even if they are telling you bald face lies but sometimes plain doing nothing at all and smiling may be the best medicine.

Funny, you were trying to bring the continuum of force up when it applied to your argument...

We use deescalation techniques too; those come first. Just because I carry OC doesn't mean I'm not capable of descallating the situation. In fact, if you read my post carefully, you would have noticed that the first thing my partner and I did was to try to deescalate the scene by separating the two. That doesn't always work, though. Somebody enraged enough isn't going to play nice just because you're taking a non-threatening posture and putting your hands in the air.

You seem to be under the impression that I jump into any situation spraying first and talking later. I've only used my OC once in my many years doing this. I've deescalated far many more situations. Just because I carry OC doesn't mean I'm using it everytime somebody looks at me funny.

So how would you know if your spraying an asthmatic and by then your actions cause death or an ICU admission, the resultant legal action aimed at yourself does your medical director know or do you hve a medical director for your outreach program ? Are you permitted to use Beta 2 adronergics on your car at an F.A. or EMT-B level in the event of accidental release while on your person ? Yet another HUGE risk assessment when operating a Motor Vehicle, phat lot of good your going to be if you have to "save a life" and you can't see jack shit.

Again, you seem to think that I go around spraying everyone with asthma who comes into my sight. By the way, even when somebody has asthma, it's very rare that they have complications (let alone experience death) from being sprayed with OC. Especially low concentration OC. The odds of the above example happening are very low. I'd say you'd be more likely to run an old lady over with your bus than I'd spray and kill someone with asthma.

But what is the difference really between a scene known to have a dog attack and no authorities on-scene it is unsafe for you and your partner its irrefutable. I have little doubt from your story both yourself and you partner were somewhat antagonistic the proof is the resultant interactions with the human you have described.

Okay... we roll up onto a scene, a patient and her mother are calmly sitting in their driveway. They don't appear emotional in the least bit. Had a dog been loose, I would have figured that they would have been someplace safer. There was no indication that an aggressive human had any part of anything. Hindsight is 20/20, but I still don't believe you would have done anything any differently.

We were not aggressive, we were defensive. We tried to seperate the woman and the man, and my partner got physically shoved. That warranted OC.

Most seriously you could have been charged with assault for spraying the owner of the dog, did he physically assault you ? did the dog bite you ? NO, in fact in a court you easily could be perceived as the aggressor as you clearly stated you and your partner attempted to get in between the 2 parties ONCE AGAIN ITS NOT YOUR JOB ! You should have "protected the patient" your partner watching your back and removed the injured party to a safe area like the back of the rig and locked doors or drove away.

No, we couldn't have been charged. The police officer made it very clear that we were in the right and that WE could have pressed charges if we wished (and we didn't).

Did he physically assault us? YES! He made threats of violence against us (that's assault), he shoved my partner (that's battery). It doesn't sound like you have a firm grasp of American criminal law (since you're referring to "assault" as physical contact). Scoff at it all you want, but that's where my Powers of Arrest training comes in.

And I did protect the patient. It was my partner who tried to deescalate the man.

I understand, where you come from the only thing you have to worry about is getting jump kicked from an angry Kangaroo. But here, the backroads are dangerous

And btw, I work on an RA. The church first aid thing is a side volunteer thing I do.

[paramedicmike]

Ok. You mentioned this twice and I haven't seen an explanation for what it means. What's an "RA"?

Also, what's the deal with the "power to arrest" thing you keep throwing around? You said you're not a cop but yet you've mentioned this twice. What gives?

[ShockDoctor]

"RA" stands for Rescue Ambulance. It's distinguished from a regular ambulance by its equipment (and lights and sirens), and is staffed by at least two EMTs (verse one EMT and a driver). It was developed in a time in my county where a distinction actually existed, but now a days just about every bus is an RA. We do have a couple of the older vehicles, but they only get used for special events wanting a first aid team. The abbreviation is still active in our area's radio codes. You'll hear the police asking for an "RA" over the radio, ect.

The Power of Arrest training is required for anyone who wants to carry either handcuffs or OC. It's basically an eight hour course that teaches basic criminal law, focusing on private arrests. "Battery", "unlawful detention", and other legal problems that people can get into by restraining supposed suspects. It covers when you can detain, and when you can't. Searches, and so on. We're also required to go through specific training for each piece of equipment we want to carry (OC Certification for OC, and handcuff certification for handcuffs).

Edited July 14, 2011 by ShockDoctor

[BushyFromOz]

By the way, even when somebody has asthma, it's very rare that they have complications (let alone experience death) from being sprayed with OC.

I dont believe that for a second.

I understand, where you come from the only thing you have to worry about is getting jump kicked from an angry Kangaroo. But here, the backroads are dangerous

Too funny! I didn't know you got grasshoppers over there turnip

The concept of an "RA" that is staffed by "2 EMT's" with "different lights and sirens" is just retarded, and what are you, an EMT or a medic?

[Medic Baby 171]

On Duty:

2 ink pens (1 for pt and 1 for me)

pen light

ID badge/certifications

trauma sheers

mini field guide

stethoscope

radio

pager

Off duty/in vehicle:

turnout gear

stethoscope

blood pressure cuff

benadryl & pain reliever

some small bandages & band-aids