Tolerance

[Happiness]

I just realized something. Where is Crotch, and why has he not commented in this string? I presume this string to be right up his alley.

He found a better playground to play in. He hasnt been around for ever..........

[FireEMT2009]

So this thread really didnt start off the way I wanted it to but alas we are kind of off to the races. So by posting the non-joke it has been assumed the conversation should only involve race and religion. In reality we as a society tolerate many things on a daily basis. So I have 2 thoughts to make it go forward.

Hosemonkey's hummmm there's a nice term. They have been known in the city that they are knuckle dragging gorilla's that only has the purpose of carring my equiment at best. So what is it that has made this particular profession intorerant in the EMS world. So it's known I luv hosemonkey's. And to the hosemonkey's here please feel free to say why EMS is intolerable in your bubble.

Also as a 40ish white female it would be nice if people here of other ethnic or religious groups comment on how they are tolerant of our culture. If this thread is to have some sort of vality then it needs 2 sides.

Since I would the a horsemonkey here, this is my opinion.

In my public speaking class we had to right a persuasive speech and mine was on why Fire and EMS should be joined together and work together. I love firefighting and EMS and if I had to choose between the two I dunno what I would do. To me I feel that EMS is a welcome and needed change in the Fire service. To me I think that EMS should be treated as well as the fire service is treated and should be allowed to grow and become a true profession.

FireEMT2009

[Happiness]

Since I would the a horsemonkey here, this is my opinion.

In my public speaking class we had to right a persuasive speech and mine was on why Fire and EMS should be joined together and work together. I love firefighting and EMS and if I had to choose between the two I dunno what I would do. To me I feel that EMS is a welcome and needed change in the Fire service. To me I think that EMS should be treated as well as the fire service is treated and should be allowed to grow and become a true profession.

FireEMT2009

So I had to see if there was such a word lmao

Horsemonkey from the Urban Dictionary

Etremely ugly woman/man with a very long angular face with Small deep sunken eyes. Is usually a stripper and has very bad pale skin.

[BushyFromOz]

To me I feel that EMS is a welcome and needed change in the Fire service. To me I think that EMS should be treated as well as the fire service is treated and should be allowed to grow and become a true profession.

Do you not see a problem with that statement? If you want it to grow, leave it the hell out of fire fighting and leave it as a stand alone profession, not your adopted orphan.

[DwayneEMTP]

... To me I feel that EMS is a welcome and needed change in the Fire service. To me I think that EMS should be treated as well as the fire service is treated and should be allowed to grow and become a true profession....

Edit. Before posting I only read, "Do you not see a problem with that statement." from Bushy's post..after reading the next sentence after posting I realize that my post is not only much less elegant, but now completely redundant. Sorry about that... :-)

I'm guessing that you don't work in the fire services at this time. Would that be accurate?

Your statement is true, EMS makes a great addition to the fire services. It adds money. The fire services on the other hand do nothing but retard EMS's ability to become an accepted profession as, in general, they have contempt for education. They have been lauded as heros for so long for simply applying C-collars and putting on O2 that they seem to have come to believe that that is all that is really necessary to be a medic.

To be a good medic you have to be supremely accountable and the fire services are famous for being unaccountable for their mistakes. Excuses instead of responsibility, ignorance instead of education, denial instead of positive change means that Fire Medic is nearly an oxymoron.

The reason that I believe that you haven't worked in the fire services yet is that when you do, you will find that your college education will be considered a weakness instead of a strength, generally speaking. It's common to hear comments in the forums from firemen saying, "You can spot the medic with a college education because he'll be running around terrified while I get all of the important shit done."

For more than a decade now there have been states trying to create AAS entry level requirements for medics, and in each case the fire services spend millions on ads saying something to the effect, "Your government wants your heros in a classroom instead of out on the streets saving lives!" With the mandatory picture of some shithead running out of a burning building carrying a baby of course...

I have met and been blessed to learn from a few really, really good fire medics. But in general, if you view your comments as a country, which we must, the cost/benefit is sloped so far away from EMS as to be laughable.

That is what Bushy meant about your thoughts being wrong. You implied that EMS can become it's own, respected profession by being absorbed by the one industry that despises it the most...Never going to happen brother. The fire services involvement in EMS has already pushed EMS back, maybe 20 years, and further involvement shows no signs of reversing that trend...

See what I mean?

Dwayne

Edited July 31, 2011 by DwayneEMTP

[FireEMT2009]

So I had to see if there was such a word lmao

Horsemonkey from the Urban Dictionary

Etremely ugly woman/man with a very long angular face with Small deep sunken eyes. Is usually a stripper and has very bad pale skin.

I figured that was from the tradition where firefighters had to have horses pull the fire apparatus to and from the fires, thus earning the nickname horsemonkey.

Do you not see a problem with that statement? If you want it to grow, leave it the hell out of fire fighting and leave it as a stand alone profession, not your adopted orphan.

Ehh, I see the fire service as doing well with EMS involved. In my hometown the fire departments and EMS are completely separate entitities. Other towns surrounding mine can join both and 9 times out of 10 they do and truly give their all. Mine is old school so you have to choose between fire and EMS.

Edit. Before posting I only read, "Do you not see a problem with that statement." from Bushy's post..after reading the next sentence after posting I realize that my post is not only much less elegant, but now completely redundant. Sorry about that... :-)

I'm guessing that you don't work in the fire services at this time. Would that be accurate?

Your statement is true, EMS makes a great addition to the fire services. It adds money. The fire services on the other hand do nothing but retard EMS's ability to become an accepted profession as, in general, they have contempt for education. They have been lauded as heros for so long for simply applying C-collars and putting on O2 that they seem to have come to believe that that is all that is really necessary to be a medic.

To be a good medic you have to be supremely accountable and the fire services are famous for being unaccountable for their mistakes. Excuses instead of responsibility, ignorance instead of education, denial instead of positive change means that Fire Medic is nearly an oxymoron.

The reason that I believe that you haven't worked in the fire services yet is that when you do, you will find that your college education will be considered a weakness instead of a strength, generally speaking. It's common to hear comments in the forums from firemen saying, "You can spot the medic with a college education because he'll be running around terrified while I get all of the important shit done."

For more than a decade now there have been states trying to create AAS entry level requirements for medics, and in each case the fire services spend millions on ads saying something to the effect, "Your government wants your heros in a classroom instead of out on the streets saving lives!" With the mandatory picture of some shithead running out of a burning building carrying a baby of course...

I have met and been blessed to learn from a few really, really good fire medics. But in general, if you view your comments as a country, which we must, the cost/benefit is sloped so far away from EMS as to be laughable.

That is what Bushy meant about your thoughts being wrong. You implied that EMS can become it's own, respected profession by being absorbed by the one industry that despises it the most...Never going to happen brother. The fire services involvement in EMS has already pushed EMS back, maybe 20 years, and further involvement shows no signs of reversing that trend...

See what I mean?

Dwayne

I have been in the fire service 5 years come this November. I also run EMS when I am here for college and my college we do our Paramedic externships with the city Fire/EMS department.

While I have been here I have been trained by very knowledgable people who love Fire and EMS respectively, not as the little orphan it adopted. They make you give rationale for treatment and will make you into a better medic by teaching you what they have come to know. Even the Intermediates in training still get into conversations with me about patient care, pharmacology, and ratioale for treatments of certain types of disease proccesses.

I have not been treated as the new guy with too much information I have been treated as everyone else there.

And I think the fire service has helped move and grow the EMS field forward not as much backwards.

The "hero" aspect is not just on the fire side, it runs deep in the EMS side as well.

There are great fire medics out there and there are lousy fire medics as well. I believe we have the choice to choose which one we will be. And I have choosen to be the best fire medic I can be.

FireEMT2009

[BushyFromOz]

While I have been here I have been trained by very knowledgable people who love Fire and EMS respectively, not as the little orphan it adopted. They make you give rationale for treatment and will make you into a better medic by teaching you what they have come to know. Even the Intermediates in training still get into conversations with me about patient care, pharmacology, and ratioale for treatments of certain types of disease proccesses.

Rationale, drugs etc are all very good an well bro, but any decent pe-hospital education program should have that anyway so its not exclusive to a fire department

EMS are completely separate entitities

Good, the way it should be. Unless your into taking over other service providers as well.... have you guys evert thought about doubling up as meter maids as well, you know, make some extra bucks from fining people for illegal parking, it might bolster your finances and youd still be free to respond

And I think the fire service has helped move and grow the EMS field forward not as much backwards.

Dude, you are gravely mistaken. Spend 20 minutes searching the site and youll find some very honest opinions about the abortion that fire based EMS actually is, a minimum cost revenue raiser designed to keep fire fighters in work and screw the patient.

In the end dude, its not about there being great fire medics and poor fire medics, its about having a fulltime, dedicated ambulance provider, a specialist in its health care field, not half a dozen blokes on a pumper.

So, i fully recognise you think its awesome the way it is, because that all you know. Its warm and cosy and you can sit back at night and think that all is right with the world. The status quo would do. But if you spent 20 minutes on google, you will realise that what you you accept as normal most other 1st world countries would consider sub-standard. you point me out one other health profession that a skilled labourer could take over with a few weeks of training and ill eat my shirt.

FD's caught a boon from Eugene Nagel with his idea, pitty more of the US didn't pay attention to Zafar and Caroline instead. youd have a culture of highly educated health care professionals instead of some smokeys with an extra tool box.

This shit filters down you know, crappy systems create crappy data which MD's and administrators use to beat us up with, no wonder we dont place much stock in a lot of the studies coming out of the US, its not even performed by real Paramedics!

Edited July 31, 2011 by BushyFromOz

[tniuqs]

FD's caught a boon from Eugene Nagel with his idea, pitty more of the US didn't pay attention to Zafar and Caroline instead. youd have a culture of highly educated health care professionals instead of some smokeys with an extra tool box.

This shit filters down you know, crappy systems create crappy data which MD's and administrators use to beat us up with, no wonder we dont place much stock in a lot of the studies coming out of the US, its not even performed by real Paramedics!

Well just my 2 cents, must agree with Bushy and Dwayne 100%. In an attempt to comply with this thread re: TOLERANCE again mixing the 2 cultures of Fire and Pre Hospital Emergency Medicine is a proven disaster generally speaking where I reside, divorces are far more common than long term successful marriages.

Fire department have an agenda to embrace the wallet. If EMS did not generate revenue very frankly speaking then you would never see a ahem "blended" service. <insert knee slapping noises>

The economics of it all, with the tightening of budgets, is that Fire looks to their own stats (the proof they use to justify their budgets) that being response to scene (the budget managers like local geopolitics are suckered in to this) and somehow the clock stops on arrival ? Whereas in EMS care the clock realistically starts when patient contact is made.

The IAFF is bloody huge, the largest single labour organized entity in North America, the NFPA sets their own standards wereas in EMS its state to state/province/county/prefecture/territory and no real national solidarity, moreover subject to the local Medical Direction, scope of practice varying beyond comprehension.

Now look to your own Fire/Medic stats and the massive differences in call volume(s) "medical vs real fires or public safety responses" the math just does not add up, neither does sending a hugely expensive Pumper or Crash Rescue to every "trouble breathing call" factor in that most grunt smokie's want nothing to do with that, come on its the truth "saving themselves and resources" for that 3 alarm blaze using gravity applied physics and holding a mattress firmly in situ.

Unfortunately and most curiously these response times are used to justify the purchase of more Fire Trucks vs the very realistic NEED for more Ambulances, tell me that's not the truth and I will ___ fill in the blank.

Bottom Line:

Fire is Pubic Safety.

Police is Law Enforcement.

EMS is Health Care.

late edit: (A tighter bond to hospital based operations for con-ed, hands on patient contact is needed in the USA, EBM studies, one cannot accomplish these goals with a "must return to the hall" the diner bell went off.

Work together sure, Independent entities Yes, share infrastructure like accommodations, Yes. But having one groups priorities in funding over the other EPIC FAIL.

This very serious conflict potential will undermine the goal for what is best for the people / taxpayers. That said: unless intelligent representation is made on behalf of Pre Hospital Health Care highly unlikely with the old guard in Fire Departments.

The fact remains: The elephant sits where it wants too !(plagerized from asy) unfortunately in my opinion with long term repercussions for the continued development of EMS in your hood, again look as Bushy advised, world wide, UK, OZ, NZ, Israel, CND, Norway, Sweden, the USA is the real anomaly.

cheers

ps Happpy is more interested in the "hose" part than the monkey part she is biased

Edited July 31, 2011 by tniuqs

[Happiness]

awe your funny and the sad truth is that it is normally monkeys holding the hose.....

[FireEMT2009]

Rationale, drugs etc are all very good an well bro, but any decent pe-hospital education program should have that anyway so its not exclusive to a fire department

Good, the way it should be. Unless your into taking over other service providers as well.... have you guys evert thought about doubling up as meter maids as well, you know, make some extra bucks from fining people for illegal parking, it might bolster your finances and youd still be free to respond

Dude, you are gravely mistaken. Spend 20 minutes searching the site and youll find some very honest opinions about the abortion that fire based EMS actually is, a minimum cost revenue raiser designed to keep fire fighters in work and screw the patient.

In the end dude, its not about there being great fire medics and poor fire medics, its about having a fulltime, dedicated ambulance provider, a specialist in its health care field, not half a dozen blokes on a pumper.

So, i fully recognise you think its awesome the way it is, because that all you know. Its warm and cosy and you can sit back at night and think that all is right with the world. The status quo would do. But if you spent 20 minutes on google, you will realise that what you you accept as normal most other 1st world countries would consider sub-standard. you point me out one other health profession that a skilled labourer could take over with a few weeks of training and ill eat my shirt.

FD's caught a boon from Eugene Nagel with his idea, pitty more of the US didn't pay attention to Zafar and Caroline instead. youd have a culture of highly educated health care professionals instead of some smokeys with an extra tool box.

This shit filters down you know, crappy systems create crappy data which MD's and administrators use to beat us up with, no wonder we dont place much stock in a lot of the studies coming out of the US, its not even performed by real Paramedics!

The funny thing about my hometown fire and EMS departments is that they are 100% volunteer and in my town you cannot be a part of one and a member of the other you have to choose.

And this is for all of you:

Since you all have given me the idea that fire based EMS is the worse thing that anyone could have ever come up with for the profession I have a discussion topic myself.

If fire based EMS services' leadership and management really stepped up and started encouraging more and more education, patient care, respect, and straight-forward professionalism from their employees do you think that it would change ya'lls opinion of fire/EMS systems? Or is that train too far gone to be be boarded again?

FireEMT2009

(This is only as a firefighter/EMT trying to understand from more experienced providers)