Autism

[Katiebug]

Over the years, I have lead many EMS "Horses" to the EMT City "Water". I just cannot make them drink.

I completely understand.

For what it's worth, I agree with her. I do believe that vaccine adjuvants cause severe reactions in some people.

I know this conversation has been had on the city before, but since autism is still one of the biggest epidemics we face as a society today, obviously it's not resolved. The trend isn't just alarming, it's terrifying. If people were getting swine flu at the same rate we're seeing autism, well... you can guess what the world's reaction would be.

This merits further discussion.

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[DwayneEMTP]

I have a friend, a now retired EMT, who has a 13 year old son with autism. As already mentioned, I asked her to review the article,and our string, and she comments as follows:

Oops, sorry about the double send.

Your friends thinking is very archaic. Most of the theories you mention have been put forth by the Jenny McCarthy crowd. And though she does look stellar naked, (McCarthy, though I'm not opposed to giving my opinion on your friend..) she's ignorant and deceitful. She claims to have cured autism but won't allow anyone to verify her cure. She loves her son so much, yet can't be bothered to take a semester of science so that she can at least attempt to judge the latest fad or diet intelligently. Instead she just continues to tour and get our children's autism research money dumped into landfills of ignorance. She makes me batshit crazy...

No offense intended to your friend Brother, but there is no science to back up anything that she's said, and a significant amount to show it in error.

And even if perhaps she should be proved right, someday, too much of the data being gathered today is gathered by parents, and we all know what a mess that is for data collection. For instance I was sent a questionnaire for a gluten free diet. It asked such things as, "Does you child seem calmer now?", "Does your child seem to sleep better?", etc. It's common knowledge that many, if not most, autistics have bowel issues. The gluten free diet has been shown to be gentler on the GI tract, causing less cramping, gas and loose stools. All of the symptoms in the questionnaire that I received could just as well have been attributed to an increase in comfort as opposed to any decrease in mental pathology, but what do you suppose that odds are that a parent, desperate to help their child in any way, won't misinterpret those changes in symptoms to be 'on the way to a cure?'

It is so vital that we try to stick to the science. We've wasted two decades pouring all of the autism research money into chasing vaccines, and even the man that created that scare has been defrocked (lost his license to practice, been publicly humiliated) as it has been shown, without a doubt, that he did so for financial gain and that his 'science' was smoke, mirrors, and outright lies.

Man..I can't even remember who's thread we highjacked at this point..but it's been a great conversation so far!

And Richard...Ditto to getting the horses to drink...most just aren't very thirsty...

Katie, I'd love to hear. I'll put my private email in your City mailbox. And you're right. Special needs children are, as are most topics that need to be discussed, being suffocated by political correctness. My wife, Babs, made a post about that I think on her autism site, www.alongrideontheshortbus.com . We need to talk, about autism, about hate, about fear, about every friggin' thing, and we just can't do that when so many shitheads are simply listening to comments long enough to find something to be offended by.

Thanks everyone for your comments. What a bunch of smart, kind folks in this thread. I don't know you well yet Katie, but I love everyone else here and consider them my friends...pretty friggin' cool.

Dwayne

Edited to correct double send.

Edited August 2, 2011 by DwayneEMTP

[Katiebug]

We will get there, Mike. I'd like to present ideas in a logical order. Things will inevitably spin out of control if I don't, and the spirit of the thread will be lost. There has to be some order to the conversation, so let's do this a piece at a time.

Thanks for chiming in. I always look forward to your posts. Sometimes I think you're a complete whacko, but you are a very intelligent whacko and I always understand your logic. Whether I agree with you or disagree with you, I value your input. Welcome to the conversation.

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[paramedicmike]

We will get there, Mike. I'd like to present ideas in a logical order. Things will inevitably spin out of control if I don't, and the spirit of the thread will be lost. There has to be some order to the conversation, so let's do this a piece at a time.

I asked the next logical question based on the comments you introduced to the discussion. You brought it up. Back up your claims.

Thanks for chiming in. I always look forward to your posts. Sometimes I think you're a complete whacko, but you are a very intelligent whacko and I always understand your logic. Whether I agree with you or disagree with you, I value your input. Welcome to the conversation.

Wacko, eh?

If logic, common sense, rigorous scientific study and medical decisions based on sound, reproducible, peer reviewed experimentation, evaluation and study make me a wacko then I'll gladly agree to that. But throwing labels around and, essentially, name calling is second grade behaviour well below the level of this discussion.

I thought you were better than that. I guess I was wrong.

edit: brain moved faster than my fingers and I left out a word.

Edited August 2, 2011 by paramedicmike

[nypamedic43]

When my son was diagnosed, we saw a psychologist and a pediatrician at Golisano Childrens Hospital at Strong in Roch NY. Both of the people that we saw, specialized in PDD's and the Autism umbrella. When the pediatrician was interacting with Jayse, she noticed some things about him physically.

1. His fingers are squared on the ends, not rounded.

2. He has 3 "cowlicks". 2 go clockwise and 1 goes counter clock wise.

3. His earlobes are much bigger than normal and the creases in his ear are very narrow, as is his ear canal.

4. He was born with a severe clubfoot.

5. He has 3 birthmarks. 1 thats comes over his eye, from eyebrow to cheekbone. 1 at the base of his head and 1 at his tailbone.

6. An atrial-septal defect which produced a murmer. That closed on its own at the age of 6 months.

7. peanut allergy

I filled out questionaires and paperwork that would choke a horse. In the end, he was prescribed Ritalin 5 mg twice a day. ( What a nightmare) With the Ritalin, he wouldn't eat and he wouldn't sleep. So we changed him to Concerta 27 mg once a day. He got his appetite back and he started sleeping through the night. Imagine being scared to death that your child is going to get up in the middle of the night, not wake you, and wonder off into the night. It happened to us on 2 occassions. It was terrifying and we put alarms on the doors.

Through trial and error I figured out what kind of diet works for him. We avoid red dye like the plague. I have to peel him off the ceiling if he gets anything with red dye in it. We avoid most sugars, so there isnt alot of candy or sweets in the house. Lots of fresh fruits and veggies and chicken. He doesnt really like red meat and prefers chicken and fish occasionally. We go through cycles of him not liking anything and will only eat, say, spaghettios, for every meal except breakfast, sometimes for days.

The biggest problem with Autism, is that every child is different in thier symptoms and problems. While my son is high functioning, reads well etc. he has a problem with socializing and reading into what people are trying to say. If he's made me angry for some reason, he knows I am angry but doesnt understand WHY I am angry even after I tell him why. The W questions, who, where, why, when and what pose HUGE problems for him. He knows what is being asked of him and can't communicate it in a way that is understood universally. So, sometimes when asked a question, he will answer with a totally off the wall answer. He knows the question needs an answer but cant put the idea of the answer into words, hence the off the wall answer to the question. ie: The question could be...why is the sky blue? and his answer may be something like "Because Thomas is blue"

The biggest frustration for me, after he was diagnosed, say 6 or so, was being in a store and he wanted a toy. I told him maybe after we got what we needed and he melted down right there in the aisle. people going by us looking at him like he is possessed and looking at me like "Geesh lady cant you control your kid?" It finally happened one too many times and I looked at the woman and said " He's autistic..whats your excuse?" She humppffed off down the aisle.

People who do not have a child with special needs and problems dont understand what, we that do, go through...on a daily basis. Schedules and ritual and repetiveness. The blaming of ourselves..is the reason that he is like this my fault somehow? The one step forwards and the 2 steps backwards. It is maddening and frustrating and stressful. And it seems that there are no answers, so some, not all, parents grab onto an idea and believe it and live it. Even if the idea holds absolutely no merit. Desperation for answers drive people to do crazy things. Yes I would like to know WHY my son is autistic BUT I want hard fact..science based fact and then given the opportunity to peruse it, form a conclusion and then choose a course of action. My course of action may not be the same as the next person's. I would just like the opportunity...to help my son understand things better, to be able to express himself better...to know that when my life is over, that he will be ok in this world. That what I have taught him will be enough and that he will be a productive member of a society that probably wont even begin to understand him. That's my hope anyway.

[paramedicmike]

I completely understand.

... autism is still one of the biggest epidemics we face as a society today, obviously it's not resolved. The trend isn't just alarming, it's terrifying. If people were getting swine flu at the same rate we're seeing autism, well... you can guess what the world's reaction would be.

Let's keep this in perspective, shall we?

First of all, we have no reason to believe this is an epidemic as there is no evidence to suggest, at this time, that autism is infectious.

Conservative estimates of autism rates in the US are about 1 in 80. The same source I just linked states there are an estimated 730,000 kids under age 21 in the US with autism. (I fully expect you to refuse these data, by the way.) This is for a condition that doesn't kill you.

Currently, more than 1 in 3 adults is living with some forum of heart disease (source). In 2006 more than 631,000 people died from heart disease. Dead. Deceased.

Since you mentioned the flu let's bring that in, too. The CDC generally estimates an average of 36,000 deaths per year due to influenza. This is an average, yes. It is also difficult to pin down an exact number as reporting is inconsistent for a variety of reasons (influenza related exacerbations of comorbid conditions being listed as the primary cause of death, for example).

How many people died from autism? Honest question. I can't find numbers.

Don't get me wrong. I am not, not even for a minute, going to suggest that there is no impact with an autism diagnosis. I've seen first hand what it can do to a family dynamic and the changes it demands. What I disagree with is your notion that it is "one of the biggest epidemics we face as a society today". It is disingenuous and the numbers don't back up the claim.

[Katiebug]

Dwayne, you are correct that much of this data is being recorded/reported by untrained parents. You are correct that many of the methods are unscientific. But look at the sheer volume of data. Look at the number of people reporting the same experiences.

What does that tell us? What it tells me is that there is a huge population of parents that believe something did this to their kids. They also say that their kids showed no signs of any deficits prior to receiving vaccinations. That the deficits came soon after the shots.

If it was a small group of people saying these things, I would not likely pay much heed to it. But it's a rather large group of people. And they all say the same thing. Are they all crazy? Hardly. There was an event that changed their children. The story is consistent from family to family. Telling them they're crazy feels to me like telling a fibromyalgia patient that their pain is all in their head. We were doing that a few years ago, remember?

So I looked into it. I'm obviously not a doctor or professional researcher, but I like to think I'm a pretty smart guy. I'm fluent in Google. So now I have a pretty good understanding of what all sides are trying to say. Both have good points.

Consider this: Can anyone here name a medicine that won't have any side effects on at least some people? How can any medicine, vaccine, or whatever claim to be beneficial to 100% of the people, 100% of the time? Especially one that contains known neurotoxins and is designed to break down the immune system? It can't. I would expect side effects in a large percentage of the population. It's the elephant in the room and people are pretending it's not there.

Coincidentally, the first documented cases of autism were born at the same time soluble mercury was added to vaccines and seeds. Eight of the first eleven cases were born to educated, successful parents that had access to the new vaccines. The first European case is suspected of having been exposed to seed residue. Weird...

That's my view, and there's plenty more reasons to believe it.

Coming soon: "The anatomy of a vaccine, but with a lot more information".

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Mike, look again at the rate the incidence of autism has increased over the last 40-50 years and tell me that doesn't worry you more than heart disease. We know what causes heart disease. We have things we can do about it.

Perspective? Mike, polio didn't affect this many people at its peak. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_poliomyelitis That's perspective. And the numbers are still going up. The numbers in the ratio keep getting closer together. Yes, I believe we have a crisis. Who in their right mind wouldn't?

Perspective is good. I believe I've got a grip on mine.

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Edited August 2, 2011 by Katiebug

[DwayneEMTP]

I asked the next logical question based on the comments you introduced to the discussion. You brought it up. Back up your claims.

Wacko, eh?

If logic, common sense, rigorous scientific study and medical decisions based on sound, reproducible, peer reviewed experimentation, evaluation and study make me a wacko then I'll gladly agree to that. But throwing labels around and, essentially, name calling is second grade behaviour well below the level of this discussion.

I thought you were better than that. I guess I was wrong.

edit: brain moved faster than my fingers and I left out a word.

Man, one of us completely misread her comments. I read them as a compliment to your intelligence with a little tongue in cheek shoulder punching. You seemed to have read them as an attack.

What's up with that brother? You seem to be more on the attack than usual of late...

Dwayne

[paramedicmike]

Mike, look again at the rate the incidence of autism has increased over the last 40-50 years and tell me that doesn't worry you more than heart disease. We know what causes heart disease. We have things we can do about it.

Heart disease will kill you. Autism won't.

Perspective? Mike, polio didn't affect this many people at its peak. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_poliomyelitis

I asked for reputable sources. Wikipedia is not a reputable source. It's an open site allowing anyone, no matter their motives, to edit content. Try again. And please put some effort into it.

Yes, I believe we have a crisis. Who in their right mind wouldn't?

Ah. Now it's a crisis and not an epidemic? Which is it? You can't change your argument midway through the discussion.

Perspective is good. I believe I've got a grip on mine.

I suppose that's good. But you still haven't provided anything to support any argument you've presented.

[Eydawn]

Eh, I don't call anyone a whacko without a smiley-face to make sure that it's taken as tongue in cheek. *shrugs* I thought it was a jab and a nod all in one, wouldn't have really offended me but I'm not the person it was directed at. Mike, quit playing semantics. An epidemic and a crisis are not mutually exclusive. FOCUS... ~_~

I agree with Mike on the meat of the issue, interpersonal whoopsies aside... where's the data? OMG that page in the original post... what a nutjob this lady is. Has charlatan written ALL OVER her. I agree that the rise in autism is alarming, but so is the rise in so many other things. Like Alzheimer's dementia, for example. That scares the shit out of me, because there is NO PRAYER of normal coping for any given length of time. Once you've got it, you're going to die, and you're going to lose a great deal of what is important to you and be AWARE of the loss for at least part of the time.

Back to the original topic of autism... the whole vaccine-correlation/causation link has been thoroughly disproven, and that British scientist who originated it hauled up for inquest over poor medical practice and crappy ethics. Until there's good data to indicate a link, that particular idea is dead as a doornail from the scientific perspective. From the anecdotal perspective, it will continue to hold water because people want SOMETHING to be the cause.

Children go through massive neurodevelopmental changes at the same time as they receive many vaccinations. Ergo, it looks causative... but as stated before, the data doesn't back it up.

The gut flora argument that we started with here really holds just about as much credibility to me as "the government is secretly poisoning all of us." Sure, every theory that's different than the norm could be valuable to investigate, but let's focus on the ones that actually may lead to USEABLE data that can help us change practice and understanding. Reading that web page was like reading the label on a bottle of Dr. Bronner's Castille Soap... (Please tell me someone in here gets this...)

Wendy

CO EMT-B