Autism

[paramedicmike]

Katiebug, If you think questioning statements that you have presented as fact, with no supporting documentation while challenging people to counter your position, is an attack on your character then we're in for an exceedingly long discussion.

I'm looking forward to your evidence based research supported facts.

edited to add to whom this is being directed.

Edited August 3, 2011 by paramedicmike

[chbare]

You still don't seem to understand. There are no absolutes in science. One of the major defining characteristics of a theory is the ability to test it for possible inconsistencies. In fact, solid theories such as general relativity are being tested to this very day. This is why allot of pseudoscience and all religions are not "scientific." It's pretty hard to test a theory if it cannot be tested or potentially proven incorrect.

Also, you do not seem to understand this individual component concept you talked about. A medication is not simply the combination of it's individual components when considering their effects. Let's do a basic example: I expose you to elemental Chlorine and you would soon die. I expose you to elemental Sodium and "boom." I pull a valence electron from Sodium and give it to Chlorine and I have a "stable" molecule of Na+Cl- that can de dissolved in water to produce thing like the IV crystalloids we all know and use. It would be quite myopic to make assumptions based on examination of individual components without good observations that are peer reviewed and reproducible.

You have yet to present us with links to evidence and your conclusions based on the examination of said evidence. Remember, even with a good theory, you need to show us the money at the end of the day. Feel free to do so and we can have a discussion.

Take care,

chbare.

Edited August 3, 2011 by chbare

[Happiness]

I have been reading this thread from the begining and I have to say WOW.

Katiebug so first of all you are battling with 2 members on here about what they KNOW and live with on a daily basis, not what they think they know. It has been pointed out by both that they dont believe vaccines are the issue. But yet like Mike says you dont produce the backing that say's there is the possibility of truth in your statements and so you know WIKI sites on here are concidered garbage and also just because you can google it dosn't make it true.

Second if you are going to have a battle with Mike then produce your facts and the discussion will be a learning experience for one and all. Don't take what he says personally or as Dwyane says he will drive you Batshit.

So we all have fears about our children. (you dont mention how old your are) I have had my 3 boys vaccinated for what ever was given to them and like Annie I wish they had the chickenpox vac. For my youngest. He was 2 days old when my middle son popped out with them. So for some reason he didnt get them at that time. For years when he was younger I would take to where the chickenpox were so he would get them (a friend at 30 (male) got them and also just about died). So at 13 boom he had them everywhere, in his throat, ears, and anus. Nice eh. It was complete hell for him and us. Vaccinations are also important if you are travelling to other countries so you dont get what ever they have that can kill you. But like Mike I am also interested in your back up.

So as a person who is on the outside looking in this is what I see. I see alot of Parents like Bab's and Dwyane just loving their children. N39 was a regular here at the time and I remember having discussions with her about her frustrations. She also just loves her child. They are all open about it and are willing to share their experences with those that ask, I have also read the blog that Babs created and it is very insiteful, you should read it. I commend any parent that has taken that extra step to make those like us understand.

I have been fortunante to be around 2 children who have challanges (that may sound strange but read on). One is diagnosed with autism(and he also has other underlying factors and is non-verbal and will probably end up institutionalized if something ever happens to his parents), the other I dont know the diagnosis but her parents were told that she will never move. Once her mother took off some of the meds (anti-sezure she never had one) she started to develop. She really is one in a million. Her vision has improved, her hearing, her ability to recognized objects and people and she will walk if she is holding your hand. So the point of this.

I would like to thank all the parents with children that have challanges because by you being able to talk about and socialize your children with my per say normal children the following is what happens,

My 18 yr old son was in a Mcdonalds a few months back and in came an older woman that was definently challanged. This person sat down with her meal and was enjoying a conversation with herself. The Mcdonalds security team came over to her and harrassed her, Calling her a retard, and did she escape from the Mental institution and a few other choice wordings. So you know My son is about 5,11 maybe 160lbs has tattoos that are visable and things in his face. He looks like he could be a gang member I guess, but he is not, so you know he is persuing a career in the RCMP (face things are gone . So he went up to the Security Team and proceeded to rip them a new ass hole. One even said it was ok for him to say these things because his brother was handicapped, yep that statement didnt go so well for him. The manager came out and told my son to leave, he had a few choice words for him also. He left like he was asked and waited outside until the woman came out so he knew she was Okay.

Parents like yourself you are helping make the younger generations understand these conditions and they are becomming advocates for your children when your not around. I remember when all children with challanges where thrown in institutions and forgotten. Thank you again for all you have done for your kids and mine

I have also sent this thread to a friend the mother of the young man i have mentioned and told her I would copy paste what she emailed me

Edited August 3, 2011 by Happiness

[paramedicmike]

Don't take what he says personally or as Dwyane says he will drive you Batshit.

Is this a compliment?

That's just it. I don't know him. He doesn't know me. There's nothing personal going on here; at least there's not from my end. But you can't create, or enter, a discussion, make blanket statements as if they're facts and not present evidence to back that position at the time the statements are made.

It appears I'm not the only one to think so.

[Happiness]

Is this a compliment?

Maybe

[nypamedic43]

First I want to say HI BABS!! It's very nice to "meet" you Second I want to share this lnk. I was watching some youtube videos and I noticed it on one of the Autism videos. I havent had a chance to check out alot of it but from the topic list, I think it merits further perusal just to see what information is there.

www. neurodiversity.com

It may prove to be something that I won't be interested in after reading a few articles, but I thought I would share it.

[Babs]

Hi Nypaemt39! Nice to "meet" you too. I would like to go through that site you posted. It seems like a lot of information there. I also want to say "thanks!" to Annie and Happiness for their kind words.

This has been a really interesting thread and I'm very curious to see where it goes from here. I belong to a forum for Moms of kids with an ASD but it's mostly about emotional support. It's nice for a change to be a part of a discussion that is trying to deal with facts.

[DwayneEMTP]

Ahhhh...I saw this coming from 5 years away....

An article Babs found tonight while we were chatting...The reason I hate this bitch...For nearly a generation she's sucked the research money away form my son's illness to fulfill her personal agenda...

The article quotes a Time interview, but I can't find it online at the moment...

"After years of speaking publicly about her belief that MMR shots (immunization for measles, mumps, and rubella) caused her son to suffer from autism, Jenny McCarthy now faces the reality that her 7-year-old son Evan — who no longer shows any signs of autism — may likely have lived with completely different illness.

A new article in Time magazine — which Jenny was interviewed for — suggests Evan suffers from Landau-Kleffner syndrome, “a rare childhood neurological disorder that can also result in speech impairment and possible long-term neurological damage.”

Many applaud Jenny, who has never stopped fighting to help her son since his autism diagnosis in 2005. Others, like the Center of Disease Control, say her claims about immunizations make her “a menace to public health.”

Jenny talks about her son’s progress saying, “Evan couldn’t talk — now he talks. Evan couldn’t make eye contact — now he makes eye contact. Evan was anti-social — now he makes friends. It was amazing to watch … when something didn’t work for Evan, I didn’t stop. I stopped that treatment, but I didn’t stop.”

And she is also reversing her initial position that the MMR shots caused Evan’s autism. Jenny now says she wants vaccinations better researched — rather than getting rid of them altogether, as she previously promoted. And though her son may never have had autism, Jenny insists, “I’ll continue to be the voice” of the disorder."

http://www.hollywood...ver-had-autism/

Yeah, no one wants you for the voice, particularly now that you've proved to be a bigger idiot that previously believed...

Dwayne

Edited to adjust formatting...

Edited August 4, 2011 by DwayneEMTP

[systemet]

Hi,

I just wanted to comment on this, a little.

The idea that autism is caused by MMR vaccination is no longer a matter of serious scientific debate. Since Wakefield's original study of 12 children [1], a huge amount of money and resources has been devoted towards investigating this idea. There has been a total failure to demonstrate any causal link between the MMR vaccine and autism. In fact, there's been pretty good data reported to suggest that the two are not linked. For example:

- a study of 32,000 children in Yokohama, Japan born between 1988 - 1996, showing that not only did the diagnosis of autism fail to drop after MMR vaccination stopped in 1993, but that it continued to increase at a greater rate [2]

- a Polish study of 288 children, failing to show an association between either MMR or single-dose measles vaccination and the development of autism [3]

- a Danish study of 537,303 children, failing to show any association between autism and MMR vaccination [4]

This is by no means an exhaustive description of the epidemology that's been performed. And this alone, should really lead anyone to question any proposed link between MMR vaccination and autism. If you can't see an association in a half-million Danish children, it's probably not there. It's certainly better scientific evidence than a case-series of 12 autistic patients.

The science alone, answers this question. There is no longer any serious debate. On top of this, is the issue that Wakefield, the physician who first proposed this link has had his medical license revoked for fradulent and unethical behaviour, and that the Lancet has retracted his initial publication, referenced in [1]. What's important to understand, is that this did not occur because Wakefield was wrong. People are wrong in science all the time. Sometimes spectacularly wrong. I would be suprised if it's even possible to complete a career as a scientific researcher without ever printing something that was later shown to be incorrect. Being wrong is accepted, perhaps even encouraged in science. Provided you behave ethically.

Wakefield was being paid by a law firm developing a law suit before he published his study. He even proposed a link between MMR vaccination and autism before carrying out his original research. He misrepresented his patients, and reported his data incorrectly [5]. What's unforgiveable, is that this fradulent action resulted in the diversion of an extraordinary amount of scientific resources towards investigating a hoax. There's no doubt that this money, time and effort could have been better spent elsewhere. Furthermore, the declining rates of MMR vaccination that happened in response, likely resulted in many childhood deaths from preventable disease.

All the best.

[1] Wakefield AJ, Murch SH, Anthony A, Linnell J, Casson DM, Malik M, Berelowitz M, Dhillon AP, Thomson MA, Harvey P, Valentine A, Davies SE, Walker-Smith JA. Ileal-lymphoid-nodular hyperplasia, non-specific colitis, and pervasive developmental disorder in children. Lancet. 1998 Feb 28;351(9103):637-41.

[2] Honda H, Shimizu Y, Rutter M.No effect of MMR withdrawal on the incidence of autism: a total population study.J Child Psychol Psychiatry. 2005 Jun;46(6):572-9.

Przegl Epidemiol. 2009;63(1):107-12.

[3] Mrozek-Budzyn D, Kiełtyka A, Majewska R.[Lack of association between MMR vaccination and the incidence of autism in children: a case-control study]. Przegl Epidemiol. 2009;63(1):107-12.

[4] Madsen KM, Hviid A, Vestergaard M, Schendel D, Wohlfahrt J, Thorsen P, Olsen J, Melbye M.A population-based study of measles, mumps, and rubella vaccination and autism.N Engl J Med. 2002 Nov 7;347(19):1477-82.

[5] Deer B. How the case against the MMR vaccine was fixed. BMJ. 2011 Jan 5;342:c5347. doi: 10.1136/bmj.c5347

[uglyEMT]

Yeah, no one wants you for the voice, particularly now that you've proved to be a bigger idiot that previously believed...

Dwayne

I never would believe anything that airheaded blond bimbo said period.

sorry couldn't resist.

BTW I have nothing productive to add to this thread because I have absolutely no knowledge of the disease other then knowing it is a disease. So back to your regularly scheduled thread..............