Darwin Award candidate or just plain unlucky?

[paramedicmike]

You know, its comments like the ones from AK, Paramedicmike (and even in a small way from Dwayne) that make people regret ever posting their personal feelings/views on any topic.

Nobody was giving you grief for posting your personal feelings/views on a topic. You were getting grief because you demonstrated a pretty flawed understanding of what was going on. This is compounded by the idea that you should know better based on where you are in your training and comments you've made in other threads.

First off, Ironman John Carson was already in training for an Ironman competition, when he was injured. Despite the fact that the doctors offered little hope of recovery, he was eventually able to walk again. *SIDE NOTE: Just because I was in a similar situation and commented on it, doesn't mean that I was making it 'all about me', it simply pointed out that I've 'been there, done that' and have personal experience and can relate to the hardships and struggles that Mr. Carson went through in order to reach this point in his recovery, and have a deeper appreciation for his accomplishments than people who have never had to go through something of this magnitude.

Even though Mr. Carson was able to walk and still ride his bicycle, he relied on a wetsuit for buoyancy in order to be able to swim.

The part your missing is that Mr. Carson is a quadriplegic. You stated that quadriplegics cannot use their arms or legs. So yes, in this instance you are, in fact, wrong. And that's what you were getting called on.

The article on Mr. Fogle stated that he was 'hampered by his physical disability from manually activating his primary parachute and was likely counting on his backup chute to deploy'. This changes his status in my opinion, from 'active participant' to 'passive participant'. This is why I made the statement that there should be some sort of physical requirements to be able to participate in an activity. I would have said the same thing if Mr. Fogle had chosen to participate in scuba diving. I can understand the concept of being reliant on certain devices to ASSIST you in your quest, but to be completely reliant on a device changes things. Everything we do requires some sort of physical input. If you're hampered or unable to do what is physically necessary (in this case, pulling the 'rip-cord')...maybe reconsidering the activity is a good idea.

You don't know that he was being reliant on anyone or any device. It didn't say he made all of his jumps relying on his reserve to safely land. It seems you're taking information from an incomplete story and making quite a few assumptions.

Additionally, since Mr. Fogle had completed 125 jumps and WAS experienced, logic would dictate that in view of his physical limitations, he should have been even more vigilant in ensuring that the devices that would keep him from getting injured or killed would work when they were needed to perform their task!

What's interesting is that there are practices in play here that should have ensured that all the devices in question were set up and working properly. Of course, this goes back to an open and incomplete investigation into what happened and someone, you, making assumptions about what happened.

Unlike Mr. Carson's story, there is no evidence to support any claim that Mr. Fogle was even remotely able to do ANYTHING, other than verbalize his wishes to have something done for him.

There's no evidence in the very short news report. Do you really think they had the space to write out his life story and provide a detailed functionality report? You're assuming an awful lot.

There is no evidence to support or refute that this was nothing more than a suicide attempt by Mr. Fogle. If it WAS his way of going out 'in a blaze of glory', then shame on him for making a public spectacle out of his death!

And now you're being judgmental based on incomplete information.

Really, LS. Every once in a while you post something that makes me think you're really growing and progressing as an individual and as a provider. Then you go and post something like what you've posted in this thread which makes me realize that I was wrong.

[Lone Star]

Nobody was giving you grief for posting your personal feelings/views on a topic. You were getting grief because you demonstrated a pretty flawed understanding of what was going on. This is compounded by the idea that you should know better based on where you are in your training and comments you've made in other threads.

The part your missing is that Mr. Carson is a quadriplegic. You stated that quadriplegics cannot use their arms or legs. So yes, in this instance you are, in fact, wrong. And that's what you were getting called on.

There are no flaws in my understanding.

quadriplegia [kwod″rĭ-ple´jah]

paralysis of all four limbs; motor and/or sensory function in the cervical spinal segments is impaired or lost due to damage to that part of the spinal cord, resulting in impaired function in the upper limbs, lower limbs, trunk, and pelvic organs. This term does not include conditions due to brachial plexus lesions or to injuries of peripheral nerves outside the spinal canal. Called also tetraplegia. adj., adj quadriple´gic.

http://medical-dicti...om/quadriplegia

paraplegia [par″ah-ple´jah]

impairment or loss of motor or sensory function in areas of the body served by the thoracic, lumbar, or sacral neurological segments owing to damage of neural elements in those parts of the spinal column. It spares the upper limbs but, depending on the level, may involve the trunk, pelvic organs, or lower limbs. This term is correctly used for describing cauda equina and conus medullaris injuries, but should not be used to refer to lumbosacral plexus lesions or injury to peripheral nerves outside the neural canal. adj., adj paraple´gic.

Based on those definitions alone, one can conclude that the quadriplegic cannot use their arms or legs.

Furthermore, the very title bar of the webpage for the NY Times article online states “Once a Quadriplegic, John Carson Competes in the Ironman Triathlon-NYTimes.com”. In the article found here:

http://well.blogs.ny...ner=rss&emc=rss

The article states that he was initially able to regain the use of his arms (negating ‘quadriplegic status’ and being classified by definition as a paraplegic. After being moved to Mount Sinai Medical Center’s spinal cord injury rehabilitation program in New York, he learned to walk again, thus actually negating both quadriplegic AND paraplegic status. This is where MY story came into play, having had my entire left side wiped out by a cerebral aneurysm; I had to learn to walk, write and do everything that I was able to do prior to the TBI and am able to do now. THIS is why I’m QUALIFIED to speak from experience! Its not that I was making this ‘all about me’ but pointing out my qualification to make the statement I did.

The fact that Mr. Carson made such huge gains in his fight to recover is worthy of respect and all the accolades he can handle.

You don't know that he was being reliant on anyone or any device. It didn't say he made all of his jumps relying on his reserve to safely land. It seems you're taking information from an incomplete story and making quite a few assumptions.

SALMON, Idaho (Reuters) - A quadriplegic skydiver plunged 18,000 feet to his death because he was unable to manually deploy his parachute, and his emergency chute was not set to automatically release, authorities said on Monday.

Fogle, a veteran of 125 jumps over five years, was hampered by his physical disability from manually activating his primary parachute and was likely counting on his backup chute to deploy.

Nope, no assumptions here….those are direct quotes from the article.

What's interesting is that there are practices in play here that should have ensured that all the devices in question were set up and working properly. Of course, this goes back to an open and incomplete investigation into what happened and someone, you, making assumptions about what happened.

There's no evidence in the very short news report. Do you really think they had the space to write out his life story and provide a detailed functionality report? You're assuming an awful lot.

And now you're being judgmental based on incomplete information.

I can only work with the information that’s provided by the articles, however the only assumption going on here is you assuming you know what I’m thinking, when you haven’t got a clue!

I realize that the investigation is still open and ongoing. If the news service decides to post more complete information when the investigation is done, I may change my stance; but as it stands now, based on the information available, I can only work with what little information that is released.

Really, LS. Every once in a while you post something that makes me think you're really growing and progressing as an individual and as a provider. Then you go and post something like what you've posted in this thread which makes me realize that I was wrong.

Save me the ‘poor provider’ garbage! Just because I have a different opinion than you do has absolutely NOTHING to do with my ability to provide competent and professional care!

Here’s a newsflash for you Mike: I’m not furthering my education and working on obtaining my degree for you or anyone else! If you MUST know the reasons behind my educational endeavor, it’s to enhance my knowledge base, so that I can provide better care for my patients. The side effect of that quest is to attempt to become more intelligent along the way. Nowhere in there is anything about impressing you!

[paramedicmike]

I'll take the words of the spinal surgeon over someone who can read a dictionary every day. If you really want to get technical and go by the definition you presented, "...motor and/or sensory function..." would certainly count for Mr. Carson making him a quadriplegic based on the definition you presented.

The reporter wasn't there and was, therefore, speculating based on who knows what. Just because it was printed doesn't make it fact. And since neither you, nor the reporter, were there, you, too, are speculating and making assumptions.

I can't pretend to know what you're thinking. Given the inconsistencies in your posts it's hard to tell from one post to the next what you're thinking.

No "poor provider garbage" from me. I'm simply calling it like I see it. Every once in a while I think you've demonstrated some growth. Then you say something to blow it. I have no doubt that when you're actually dealing with people face to face you can come across as a reasonably intelligent person. Unfortunately, when you post here you're consistently inconsistent. You have shown improvement, yes. But you still have a long way to go.

Lastly, I don't care who you're out to impress. I have no misconceptions that you don't give a rats ass about impressing me or anyone else here. Fortunately for you, I don't give a rats ass about it, either. All this being said, people are just as free to call you on making questionable or ridiculous statements just as you're free to continue making them. Getting angry about it isn't going to help.

[DwayneEMTP]

Hell LS, when did you get so temperamental?

The debates don't even get interesting until someone tells you why you're off in the ditch.

And I'm not sure how I played into that. I addressed your post with sincere questions, non of which you answered. I didn't think that I had to wrap posts to you in velvet...and if I do then we've hit a significant roadblock in our communication. You may not have noticed, but that's not my strong suit.

The main question that I had was this, what about his condition would lead you to believe that he shouldn't be allowed to make his own adult decisions?

And if you will remove his right to participate in high risk activities, why would you choose not to limit those of non damaged people as well?

And if you do believe that he retains the same rights as non injured people, and that decisions on high risk activities should be monitored by 'someone', then aren't we then, logically, required to eliminate rock climbing, motorcycle riding, and anything else with a higher than average likelihood of getting you killed..because obviously anyone participating in those sports is showing themselves to be incapable of making their own rational decisions it seem?

For me...I believe that intellectually you are nearly unrecognizable as the person you were a year or two ago..unfortunately you can still be a little thin skinned when your ideas are challenged. Suck it up cupcake and bring it!

Dwayne

[Lone Star]

I'll take the words of the spinal surgeon over someone who can read a dictionary every day. If you really want to get technical and go by the definition you presented, "...motor and/or sensory function..." would certainly count for Mr. Carson making him a quadriplegic based on the definition you presented.

Ok, let's try this from a different point of perspective. Since I was essentially paralyzed on my entire left side (except for my face), I was by all definitions a hemiplegic when my aneurysm presented itself.

Since I have regained the use of my left side ( I can walk, talk, write (I'm left handed) and do all the other day to day activities that I used to be able to do, am I still considered a hemiplegic?

I do have some residual effects, such as medial rotation of the left foot, and when I get tired or extremely cold, there's that ever lovely 'toe drag' (which has ruined more than one pair of boots). I also have what would be considered hypersensitive reflexes and on occasion I have what can best be described as focal motor seizures in the left lower extremity. If I try running, the left leg tends to 'lock up' and I look like a peg leg pirate trying to haul ass across the deck of his ship....

No "poor provider garbage" from me. I'm simply calling it like I see it. Every once in a while I think you've demonstrated some growth. Then you say something to blow it. I have no doubt that when you're actually dealing with people face to face you can come across as a reasonably intelligent person. Unfortunately, when you post here you're consistently inconsistent. You have shown improvement, yes. But you still have a long way to go.

If you weren’t implying that I was a ‘poor provider’ based upon the opinion that I posted and have defended, then why did you even include my competence and ability to provide care in the following comment?

Really, LS. Every once in a while you post something that makes me think you're really growing and progressing as an individual and as a provider. Then you go and post something like what you've posted in this thread which makes me realize that I was wrong.

My abilities and skills should have NEVER been brought into that statement! You have no clue what kind of provider I am, and therefore comments like that appear to only have been intended to inflame.

The main question that I had was this, what about his condition would lead you to believe that he shouldn't be allowed to make his own adult decisions?

We see it in EMS every day…..people doing stupid stuff and making really bad decisions. Since Mr. Fogle couldn’t perform all of the necessary tasks associated with skydiving safely, but yet chose to do it anyway; then someone needs to step in and prevent such activities from taking place.

Let’s say for example, you want to learn how to juggle; but you want to learn with running chainsaws. We both agree it’s not really an intelligent decision on your part. Should I just sit by while you attempt it (at least I’ll be able to pick up the pieces as we wait for an ambulance), or should I do something to prevent you from carving yourself up like a bad Thanksgiving turkey?

Activities are regulated even for the ‘able bodied’ on a daily basis. Since you mentioned motorcycles, let’s look there. Most states have enacted mandatory helmet laws simply because there are too many people out there who think that they don’t need them. What about drinking and driving laws? I’m sure every drunk will tell you that they can drive BETTER when they’ve had a few…..

Before you bring up my motorcycle wreck, let’s look at a few facts there…

I’m physically able to perform all of the tasks necessary to operate that motorcycle in a safe manner. I was also able to take actions that are consistent with trying to avoid the collision. I had to deal with the actions of someone who chose to ignore the fact that I had the right of way, and tried to beat me across an intersection.

I’m not saying that any ‘less than able bodied’ person be forced to live in a bubble, unable to do anything. I merely suggested that when a person doesn’t have the ability to perform all of the functions to ensure their own basic safety, then maybe someone needs to step in and prevent another senseless injury/death.

[paramedicmike]

Ok, let's try this from a different point of perspective. Since I was essentially paralyzed on my entire left side (except for my face), I was by all definitions a hemiplegic when my aneurysm presented itself.

Since I have regained the use of my left side ( I can walk, talk, write (I'm left handed) and do all the other day to day activities that I used to be able to do, am I still considered a hemiplegic?

I do have some residual effects, such as medial rotation of the left foot, and when I get tired or extremely cold, there's that ever lovely 'toe drag' (which has ruined more than one pair of boots). I also have what would be considered hypersensitive reflexes and on occasion I have what can best be described as focal motor seizures in the left lower extremity. If I try running, the left leg tends to 'lock up' and I look like a peg leg pirate trying to haul ass across the deck of his ship....

You're trying to change your argument.

The definition you posted, then defended, states that a quadriplegic can have motor and sensory deficits, motor with no sensory deficits or sensory with no motor deficits. Mister Carson certainly meets the criteria you yourself outlined.

If you weren’t implying that I was a ‘poor provider’ based upon the opinion that I posted and have defended, then why did you even include my competence and ability to provide care in the following comment?

My abilities and skills should have NEVER been brought into that statement! You have no clue what kind of provider I am, and therefore comments like that appear to only have been intended to inflame.

Once again you're demonstrating the need to improve upon your reading comprehension skills.

We see it in EMS every day…..people doing stupid stuff and making really bad decisions. Since Mr. Fogle couldn’t perform all of the necessary tasks associated with skydiving safely, but yet chose to do it anyway; then someone needs to step in and prevent such activities from taking place.

How do you know this? Just because a newspaper article that you admit is probably incomplete says so? An article that is based on speculation and conjecture? An article that implies that the victim was able to safely and competently participate in said activity up to the point the accident happened?

You don't know what happened. You weren't there. The reporter wasn't there. You're taking supposition and making assumptions that you cannot support. This is why you're getting grief.

Let’s say for example, you want to learn how to juggle; but you want to learn with running chainsaws. We both agree it’s not really an intelligent decision on your part. Should I just sit by while you attempt it (at least I’ll be able to pick up the pieces as we wait for an ambulance), or should I do something to prevent you from carving yourself up like a bad Thanksgiving turkey?

This depends. If the juggler in question is experienced, as was Mr. Fogle, then you'd be out of line to step in. However, if it was someone who had never done it before then perhaps a suggestion that professional guidance be consulted might be in order.

In the end, however, your argument doesn't apply simply because Mr. Fogle was not jumping for the first time. He certainly wasn't jumping unsupervised.

Activities are regulated even for the ‘able bodied’ on a daily basis. Since you mentioned motorcycles, let’s look there. Most states have enacted mandatory helmet laws simply because there are too many people out there who think that they don’t need them. What about drinking and driving laws? I’m sure every drunk will tell you that they can drive BETTER when they’ve had a few…..

Before you bring up my motorcycle wreck, let’s look at a few facts there…

I’m physically able to perform all of the tasks necessary to operate that motorcycle in a safe manner. I was also able to take actions that are consistent with trying to avoid the collision. I had to deal with the actions of someone who chose to ignore the fact that I had the right of way, and tried to beat me across an intersection.

I’m not saying that any ‘less than able bodied’ person be forced to live in a bubble, unable to do anything. I merely suggested that when a person doesn’t have the ability to perform all of the functions to ensure their own basic safety, then maybe someone needs to step in and prevent another senseless injury/death.

And on what basis are you determining that Mr. Fogle was less than able bodied to participate in skydiving? Because he's dead? That's hardly a determining factor in deciding someone was or was not able bodied. Especially when you don't know what happened and are relying on second hand reports and a speculative news piece to make your decisions.