DwayneEMTP Posted August 8, 2011 Posted August 8, 2011 Okay... not to open this can of worms again. But in that scenario would anyone be glad I was there with my gear? Which piece of gear are you thinking would have helped here? Dwayne 1
BushyFromOz Posted August 8, 2011 Posted August 8, 2011 Which piece of gear are you thinking would have helped here? Dwayne tactical super medic door kicking in boots? 1
uglyEMT Posted August 8, 2011 Posted August 8, 2011 Okay... not to open this can of worms again. But in that scenario would anyone be glad I was there with my gear? No not really. Wackers tend to get in the way on scene. 2
Just Plain Ruff Posted August 8, 2011 Posted August 8, 2011 I had a similar scenario. Called to scene where patient was short of breath. On arrival found a house locked up tight. PHone line was busy. No patient visible from any window. Searched the house outside for entry areas and found none. PD is already on scene. I asked pd if they would approve forced entry, they said no. They then went to each house and finall found a neighbor 3 doors down with a key. We are now in to about 20 minutes from time of arrival on scene. Key arrives, we enter the house to find the woman in cardiac arrest. We work her but to no avail. I was really pissed because PD refused to let us force entry but in the end, the patient was dead and probably had been since she dropped the phone while talking to 911. This patient ended up being pretty familiar to me as I took care of her in a critical asthmatic illness about 3 weeks prior. Not sure if it would have made any difference to this patient though.
island emt Posted August 9, 2011 Posted August 9, 2011 I had a similar scenario. Called to scene where patient was short of breath. On arrival found a house locked up tight. PHone line was busy. No patient visible from any window. Searched the house outside for entry areas and found none. PD is already on scene. I asked pd if they would approve forced entry, they said no. They then went to each house and finall found a neighbor 3 doors down with a key. We are now in to about 20 minutes from time of arrival on scene. Key arrives, we enter the house to find the woman in cardiac arrest. We work her but to no avail. I was really pissed because PD refused to let us force entry but in the end, the patient was dead and probably had been since she dropped the phone while talking to 911. This patient ended up being pretty familiar to me as I took care of her in a critical asthmatic illness about 3 weeks prior. Not sure if it would have made any difference to this patient though. Ruff: many years ago, I had the same call, Once we finally found a key with a neighbor to gain access the elderly pt had died. Ever since then I have never let the problem of locked doors or windows stop me from making access. I figure it's better to ask for forgiveness after the fact than to wait around and find out my patient has died. I keep several small tools in the truck at all times. A 3 pound short handle sledge, a 2 foot flat bar and a strip of bleach bottle to use as a lock slip. If the doors deadbolted, most window locks take very little to force. never had a pt complain that I made access to their home when they needed help. 1
Just Plain Ruff Posted August 9, 2011 Posted August 9, 2011 i also vowed to never let this interfere with my helping someone but when you have two cops on scene who say that if we try to force entry without truly have a bona fide reason to do so they would arrest me. That was said by the cops that night. They told me this "there is only a possibliity of an ill patient and without confirmation they couldn't let me go in" Luckily, I stopped working at that service a short time later and went to work in a smaller town where forcing entry was never an issue again. Heck, the cops I've worked with have even competed with me on who could break the door down first. The cop usually won becuase they had more doughnuts in their body system than I did. (joke of course).
tniuqs Posted August 9, 2011 Posted August 9, 2011 Actually, I was wondering about putting about 10mg of Fentanyl in a syringe with a nasal atomizer and just make a cloud of it around his head? Of course we're really off into 'what if' land now...but I wonder if it would work? Dwayne That's actually not that far fetched the Russians have used it: Unexpected "gas" casualties in Moscow: a medical toxicology perspective by Wax PM, Becker CE, Curry SC. Department of Medical Toxicology, Good Samaritan Regional Medical Center, Phoenix, AZ, USA. paul.wax@bannerhealth.com Ann Emerg Med. 2003 May;41(5):700-5 ABSTRACT In October 2002, the Russian military used a mysterious "gas" to incapacitate Chechen rebels at a Moscow theater. Despite increased interest in the potential use of lethal chemical weapons in recent years, the medical community has paid little attention to the development of incapacitating, calmative, and "less than lethal" technologies. In this analysis, we review the events surrounding the use of a calmative "gas" during the Russian military action and discuss what is currently known about fentanyl derivatives, their aerosolization, and the rationale for their use as incapacitating agents. Collectively, the available evidence strongly suggests that a combination of a potent aerosolized fentanyl derivative, such as carfentanil, and an inhalational anesthetic, such as halothane, was used. The paper also assesses potential errors leading to the loss of a substantial number of hostages. Several lessons can be learned from this surprising and novel use of an incapacitating gas. http://opioids.com/carfentanil/gas.html After our debrief with RCMP on the real life scenario this was discussed, as was pygmy blowguns. But in that scenario would anyone be glad I was there with my gear? Nope don't think I would want you anywhere near me, yet once again you missed the part where any goal focused animal, whether it be 4 legged or 2 legged. the OC just has unpredictable results, the risk assessment to yourself and a partner is increased ten fold in the event of 'side stream over spray" in a confined area. You just don't get it, that you some day, will be in real deep ca ca if you continue to pack this crap on your bat belt. My bet is someone (if you get lippy) is going to disarm you, yes with all your martial arts ninja training, then you and your partner will pay the price.
Happiness Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 Had a family member ask me to check on her uncle. She went with me along with the health nurse, the nurse was a bit freaky and asked if I would crawl throught the window. I yelled for the guy and asked if he could hear me, he said yep. I turned to the nurse and said if you want to get in there go to the cops and see if they will break down the door but I'm not going in. And back to work I went. The guy finally opened up the door for his nefew and the reason he didnt want anyone in there is because he had been very ill in his bedroom and was unable to get to the bathroom in time. He was embarrassed, and that was the end of that. One other reason I am not breaking down the door is that even if I have a visual of the pt and they are down, I dont know why they are down and I am not dying for anyone unless I gave birth to them
Richard B the EMT Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 Actual case, circa New York City, 1985: Woman with Asthma calls 9-1-1, complains of difficulty breathing. Apparently collapsed on floor behind closed and locked apartment door. Crew responded, got no answer to doorbell and knocking, had dispatch call back. No answer, left message on answering machine. 2 days later, family member opens door to visit woman, finds her deceased on floor, and EMS EMD message on answering machine. Resulted in unsuccessful lawsuit against NYC and NYC EMS. Rules changed. If crew believes incapacitated patient behind locked door, must request "additional resources", i.e. NYPD. Describe situation to NYPD Sargent or higher on the scene, and PD, or FDNY then to "take" the door. If no patient found, and nobody home, NYPD assigns a LEO to stay until someone gets home, or will otherwise secure the premises. NYPD or FDNY both "self insured", so if homeowner/renter sues for door damage, city will handle. If in a building with 24 hour maintenance staff, notify them to bring spare key(s), or NYPD/FDNY will be "taking" door. Sure improves maintenance response time, for sure. They hate replacing doors. If patient IS found, NYPD/FDNY attempts to secure premises, as already described, as EMS transports patient.
Just Plain Ruff Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 Had a family member ask me to check on her uncle. She went with me along with the health nurse, the nurse was a bit freaky and asked if I would crawl throught the window. I yelled for the guy and asked if he could hear me, he said yep. I turned to the nurse and said if you want to get in there go to the cops and see if they will break down the door but I'm not going in. And back to work I went. The guy finally opened up the door for his nefew and the reason he didnt want anyone in there is because he had been very ill in his bedroom and was unable to get to the bathroom in time. He was embarrassed, and that was the end of that. One other reason I am not breaking down the door is that even if I have a visual of the pt and they are down, I dont know why they are down and I am not dying for anyone unless I gave birth to them Not to argue but will you have the same issue with the provider who goes by the same logic as yours and the patient is your own child? Or your parent or husband?.
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