Chicago Fire

[Richard B the EMT]

Check out any online articles about the FDNY and the courts on allegation of minority candidates not getting in. Just throwing that out there.

[crotchitymedic1986]

http://www.alternet.org/story/13826/

http://www.collegebo...wsat/index.html

If the test wasn't racist, why did they change it ?  Note taking out analogies in both articles.  The problem with all standardized test is that it is much like the "Physical Agility Test" at any Fire Department.  The test is created by old fat men who can not pass the test, to keep women and minorities out.  In any Fire or EMS Department you have a wide variety of backgrounds, income levels, educational levels, and developmental issues that are unique to each individual.  If I grewup in NYC my whole life, I probably will not be able to answer questions about a farmlife (words like tractor, plow, and gizzards are probably not in my vocabulary). Conversely if I am the farm kid, words like Stoop, Living in a Flat, taxi cab, cannoli, or lox is probably pretty foreign to me.  

I offer the same solution as offered before, make the whole department take the test every year, then average the score and make that the passing bar.

Edited August 22, 2011 by crotchitymedic1986

[Just Plain Ruff]

I offer the same solution as offered before, make the whole department take the test every year, then average the score and make that the passing bar.

Well wouldn't that make the scores like 40 for passing. I'll bet that 75% of the current chicago fire departments members couldn't pass the physical agility. Plus sitting around watching television all day while running calls doesn't make these guys any smarter does it?

By the way Crotchity, do you have any documentation of what the test questions were? I'm sure that they are out there.

Plus to drop the passing score, doesn't that make it seem that the applicants overall were stupider than they should be? If the test is written to a 5th grade level like most of these types of tests, if you cannot pass it then should you really be tasked with using hyrdaulic machinery, driving a big red fire truck or God forbid, taking care of someone who is sick?

Wasn't there a recent city who had to drop it's passing score to like 60 to get enough black applicants?

[crotchitymedic1986]

Thank you ruff for helping me make my point:

1. If most of the firefighters that are employed there can not pass the physical agility test, then why is it a requirement. That would be like making all EMT-Bs take an ACLS test to be hired as an EMT-B. The test is only there to weed people out, and they do it both ways: The either make the test so easy that everyone technically passes, so then they can choose who they want (young heterosexual white guys). Or they make it so hard that only the fittest of the fit triatheletes can pass (discriminating against most men and women over age 35).

2. No I have no documentation of test questions, but if a court ruled it was discriminatory I have to agree that it was unless you can show that the court was biased in some way. The evidence must have proved that it was. If they had slam-dunk proof that it wasn't racist, and had the experts to testify that it wasn't, they would not have lost the case.

3. Depends on which 5th grade you are at. If you are at the Obama's children's school, or most predominately white schools then yes. If you are at inner-city public school in Detroit or Compton, I say no.

4. Yes, it is well documented that minorities score far worse on tests than whites. But as suggested before, when you do not allow a whole race of people any opportunity for education for over 200 years, then put them in bad schools for 40 years, you can not expect a Harvard candidate to come out of that situation often. I will admit that over 50% of that is our race's fault for our rate of drug use and single moms, if you will agree that your race's educational genocide of our race led to where we are today.

Edited August 22, 2011 by crotchitymedic1986

[HERBIE1]

How can a test question possibly be racist? Did I miss the day in school when they pulled all of the white kids aside and said, "These are the answers to any test you will ever take. Don't let the black kids know."? Us whiteies aren't born with any special sets of knowledge that every other race/color aren't born with nor do we take any secret white people classes in grade school, middle school, high school or college. Once again our village idiot has monopolized most of the threads in the last week with his vitriol and we have all succumbed to it. Sometimes I wonder who the bigger moron is, him or the rest of us (myself included).

Think institutional racism, doc. It's a fancy way of essentially saying- "Even though we cannot cite a specific example of a bias, the entire system(ie educational system failure, history of slavery, civil rights violations, etc) must be at fault- because any other explanation would be too messy, unPC, and would certainly not celebrate being a victim."

Seriously- if you ever get a chance, look up the concept of institutional racism. The term was invented back in the 60's by a black activist. It goes through these convoluted explanations and justifications, but it is actually quite clever at it's core. . Essentially, anything that adversely impacts a minority can be classified under this term- regardless of the intent of the "offender". That is exactly why that Chicago lawsuit was won.

[ERDoc]

Yeah, I know what it is. It just still baffles my mind. I would like to say, wow, crotchity, you're right. Thanks for enlightening me.

[HERBIE1]

http://www.alternet.org/story/13826/

http://www.collegebo...wsat/index.html

If the test wasn't racist, why did they change it ? Note taking out analogies in both articles. The problem with all standardized test is that it is much like the "Physical Agility Test" at any Fire Department. The test is created by old fat men who can not pass the test, to keep women and minorities out. In any Fire or EMS Department you have a wide variety of backgrounds, income levels, educational levels, and developmental issues that are unique to each individual. If I grewup in NYC my whole life, I probably will not be able to answer questions about a farmlife (words like tractor, plow, and gizzards are probably not in my vocabulary). Conversely if I am the farm kid, words like Stoop, Living in a Flat, taxi cab, cannoli, or lox is probably pretty foreign to me.

I offer the same solution as offered before, make the whole department take the test every year, then average the score and make that the passing bar.

Did you happen to miss the part where I mentioned that a black professor was hired to write this test, and who's specialty is writing race neutral, unbiased tests? So tell me again about how the test was rigged.

Here's a link, if you don't believe me:

http://overlawyered.com/2005/03/chicago-firefighters-exam/

Would you like an example of the type of question that was asked on that exam? A picture was shown of a building on fire- people in windows, firefighters performing various tasks, bystanders, cars, hoses, ladders, fire hydrants- anything you would expect to see with a building on fire. The applicants were shown the picture for awhile, and then were asked a series of questions pertaining to that picture. Where was the smoke coming from on that building? Which floors were on fire? Was the fire coming from the front or rear of the structure? How many people did you see in windows? How many ladders did you see on the building? How many people were waving for help? How many fire hydrants did you see? How many fire engines were in the picture?

Any of that sound unfair, inappropriate, unrelated to the job, or biased to you?

Explain to me how such a question can be biased, discriminatory, or unfair to anyone? Explain to me why a minority would be at a disadvantage when taking that test? Explain to me how the racist educational system would be responsible for a black doing poorly on such an exam. Explain to me how slavery from the 1800's would keep someone from being able to look at a picture and answer questions such as these.

Short of giving out crayons and having someone trace a large X on an "exam" sheet, how can this be made any easier? It's a friggin picture, for gawd sakes. A 1st grader could handle that. Should there be ANY standards at all?

[Just Plain Ruff]

Thank you ruff for helping me make my point:

And for that you are welcome. But I really wasn't trying to make your point.

I'm against racism in any form.

[ERDoc]

If the test wasn't racist, why did they change it ? Note taking out analogies in both articles. The problem with all standardized test is that it is much like the "Physical Agility Test" at any Fire Department. The test is created by old fat men who can not pass the test, to keep women and minorities out. In any Fire or EMS Department you have a wide variety of backgrounds, income levels, educational levels, and developmental issues that are unique to each individual. If I grewup in NYC my whole life, I probably will not be able to answer questions about a farmlife (words like tractor, plow, and gizzards are probably not in my vocabulary). Conversely if I am the farm kid, words like Stoop, Living in a Flat, taxi cab, cannoli, or lox is probably pretty foreign to me.

I don't know why I keep responding to you but here goes. How the hell can you make an agility test racially biased? Sexist maybe, but I guess when there's a fire, the fat people know when the women who can't carry them are on duty so they put in extra effort to get out before the FD gets there.

All of those things you pointed out have nothing to do with race (tractors, stoops, cannoli, etc). They just have to do with what part of the country you grew up in and that has nothing to do with race. Anyone that doesn't know what a cannoli is doesn't deserve the job anyways.

[scratrat]

You truly fit the description of racist Mr. Crotch.

I find it comical that it’s okay for you to do, probably because you think it’s okay. Why do you feel the need to turn every thread into racism? That says “insecure” to me…