Are some rescues just not worth it?

[Just Plain Ruff]

Damn, AK, that word just gets your knickers in a bunch every single time. Just the mention of GOD makes you sick to your stomach doesn't it?

I was using a figure of speech when I said "by the grace of God". Would you have made any comment if I had not used that word you hate so much?

Every time I say anything about my faith or anything like that you jump all over it and diminish it or ridicule it.

I guess that you must feel a much superior being for doing so don't you. I'm so glad you set me straight for using the word "god" (oops I said it again).

I'll try to not put my faith out there for you to ridicule as you seem to have so much fun doing so.

I answered your question on how my church would respond about the money yet you never replied.

You really are a piece of work.

Edited August 30, 2011 by Ruffems

[paramedicmike]

I don't know, Ruff. I took it as more of a commentary on how often "god" is brought up in daily life without any real thought or meaning behind what is being said.

You even said it yourself. You used the phrase as a figure of speech.

If the reference is reduced to a figure of speech then hasn't it lost all of its worth as a statement of impact? It's like dropping the F-bomb all the time. After a while it's no longer taboo and doesn't carry the same weight.

Of course, with AK, one can't completely eliminate the importance of the theological/philosophical questions he's asked. Even if they are more appropriate for another discussion.

[Just Plain Ruff]

I don't know, Ruff. I took it as more of a commentary on how often "god" is brought up in daily life without any real thought or meaning behind what is being said.

You even said it yourself. You used the phrase as a figure of speech.

If the reference is reduced to a figure of speech then hasn't it lost all of its worth as a statement of impact? It's like dropping the F-bomb all the time. After a while it's no longer taboo and doesn't carry the same weight.

Of course, with AK, one can't completely eliminate the importance of the theological/philosophical questions he's asked. Even if they are more appropriate for another discussion.

Well, I don't know but some of the tone I inferred was to ridicule faith in general.

AK and I have always butted heads over this one topic and I don't expect it to ever change. I love his philosophical arguments but this one seemed a little bit too condenscending. I'm not in the head of AK and I'm sure he has some logical response to what I wrote to him but it seems that every time I mention anything remotely religious that he jumps on it. I don't stop because he does this, I just know that he will pounce unless he's not reading the forums.

[akflightmedic]

Sorry I was traveling from Honduras to Atlanta...currently in the terminal now.

Had nothing to do with making me sick to my stomach as it revolts me no less than speaking of a unicorn or a flying spaghetti monster. Ignorance and a refusal to discuss anything which even remotely questions anything religious disgusts me. I do not allow religion a free pass, any religion and am always willing to discuss it on the intellectual and philosophical level.

As I stated, your topic was already addressed appropriately and I saw an opportunity to take a diversion and explore the flip side of the topic. My questions are valid as in my mind a religious man would wrestle with these decisions and it may either prompt or cease his intended actions.

Knowing you are a religious man, you are an appropriate person to direct these questions to...if you choose to answer.

It is through deep conversations such as these, the ones that make us really uncomfortable, sometimes even angry that we learn and grow together. Do you disagree? If not, do you wish to answer?

For me, I will answer my own questions as they are cut and dry.

I am not trained in water rescue, I would not attempt a rescue. I would not feel bad about it, this is life and sometimes bad things happen to good people and vice versa.I would not feel guilt or go through the what ifs. I would sleep well at night knowing my family still has me alive and knowing I can still enjoy them as much as possible instead of an annual remembrance.

[Just Plain Ruff]

Sorry I was traveling from Honduras to Atlanta...currently in the terminal now.

Had nothing to do with making me sick to my stomach as it revolts me no less than speaking of a unicorn or a flying spaghetti monster. Ignorance and a refusal to discuss anything which even remotely questions anything religious disgusts me. I do not allow religion a free pass, any religion and am always willing to discuss it on the intellectual and philosophical level.

As I stated, your topic was already addressed appropriately and I saw an opportunity to take a diversion and explore the flip side of the topic. My questions are valid as in my mind a religious man would wrestle with these decisions and it may either prompt or cease his intended actions.

Knowing you are a religious man, you are an appropriate person to direct these questions to...if you choose to answer.

It is through deep conversations such as these, the ones that make us really uncomfortable, sometimes even angry that we learn and grow together. Do you disagree? If not, do you wish to answer?

For me, I will answer my own questions as they are cut and dry.

I am not trained in water rescue, I would not attempt a rescue. I would not feel bad about it, this is life and sometimes bad things happen to good people and vice versa.I would not feel guilt or go through the what ifs. I would sleep well at night knowing my family still has me alive and knowing I can still enjoy them as much as possible instead of an annual remembrance.

I agree with all you said. You and I have had some pretty spirited discussions on this particular topic, religion.

I will address it from my perspective. Being religious really doesn't come in to play when it comes to rescue or working any type of call.

I can tell you for myself that I would also never ever ever consider a swift water rescue on two points. I am deathly afraid of swift water. Any water running faster than a normal canoe creek is running and there is someone needing help, 911 here I come. I would of course throw a rope or something in to help them but to attempt to rescue the person with more extreme means is not in my purveyance.

IF the water is running swift and I cannot see the bottom based on muddy water I'm not even going close to it. I have a family member who nearly drowned in a flash flood so that is where my fear comes from. I witnessed it.

On a religious side, it has nothin to do with whether I would attempt a rescue or not. God or Allah or whatever God you believe in really won't come to your rescue if it's your time to go.

I believe in God and I know others on this site believe in other gods or religions and some don't believe at all. I've been recalcitrant in the past in my opinions but I'm trying to see things from a different perspective. This reply is of course not a one religion is better than the other.

You summed it up very well and my response mimics yours, my family is the most important thing in this life to me. God's of course the highest but tangibly, my family is on the same level. I know that some bible thumpers would disagree with me but to me, I believe that God is real and exists but I cannot touch him, cannot hold or hug him. I can only believe in the afterlife that I will hopefully be a part of in heaven.

But for now, If I get home to my family at the end of the day, then all is right in the world. People die, several people have died during my writing this post. It's a fact of life and as long as I'm not one of the statistics or a darwin award recipient, and I go home to my family for another day, I'm happy.

People die, we cannot keep that from happening. Unfortunately when people do stupid things, sometimes EMS providers or public safety workers die while helping them. Sad but true.

What else you want to discuss AK?

[akflightmedic]

I agree with all you said. You and I have had some pretty spirited discussions on this particular topic, religion.

I will address it from my perspective. Being religious really doesn't come in to play when it comes to rescue or working any type of call.

I can tell you for myself that I would also never ever ever consider a swift water rescue on two points. I am deathly afraid of swift water. Any water running faster than a normal canoe creek is running and there is someone needing help, 911 here I come. I would of course throw a rope or something in to help them but to attempt to rescue the person with more extreme means is not in my purveyance.

IF the water is running swift and I cannot see the bottom based on muddy water I'm not even going close to it. I have a family member who nearly drowned in a flash flood so that is where my fear comes from. I witnessed it.

On a religious side, it has nothin to do with whether I would attempt a rescue or not. God or Allah or whatever God you believe in really won't come to your rescue if it's your time to go.

I believe in God and I know others on this site believe in other gods or religions and some don't believe at all. I've been recalcitrant in the past in my opinions but I'm trying to see things from a different perspective. This reply is of course not a one religion is better than the other.

You summed it up very well and my response mimics yours, my family is the most important thing in this life to me. God's of course the highest but tangibly, my family is on the same level. I know that some bible thumpers would disagree with me but to me, I believe that God is real and exists but I cannot touch him, cannot hold or hug him. I can only believe in the afterlife that I will hopefully be a part of in heaven.

But for now, If I get home to my family at the end of the day, then all is right in the world. People die, several people have died during my writing this post. It's a fact of life and as long as I'm not one of the statistics or a darwin award recipient, and I go home to my family for another day, I'm happy.

People die, we cannot keep that from happening. Unfortunately when people do stupid things, sometimes EMS providers or public safety workers die while helping them. Sad but true.

What else you want to discuss AK?

Ok so I am confused more. If god does not come into play during a rescue or during any kind of work call (which I would assume a religious man would want it the most) when does it come into play? One of the perceived most critical times and you do not want it? When do you want it?

So you could stand there and say there is nothing to do? You would not ask yourself "is the god testing me"? You would not for a second wonder if this was your calling, your moment for existing?

FYI--the Christian god and Muslim god are one in the same-the two religions differ in prophets and creative writing skills at that time.

Thanks for your opinion and others who are religious may speak up...do these thoughts go through your mind?

[Just Plain Ruff]

Ok so I am confused more. If god does not come into play during a rescue or during any kind of work call (which I would assume a religious man would want it the most) when does it come into play? One of the perceived most critical times and you do not want it? When do you want it?

So you could stand there and say there is nothing to do? You would not ask yourself "is the god testing me"? You would not for a second wonder if this was your calling, your moment for existing?

FYI--the Christian god and Muslim god are one in the same-the two religions differ in prophets and creative writing skills at that time.

Thanks for your opinion and others who are religious may speak up...do these thoughts go through your mind?

I mis-spoke on your first paragraph, of course God does come into play but I'm a realist. I know that he's there. Only he has the masterplan. If he chooses that the rescue plan is successful then it will be. that's part of the masterplan that God has put in place for all of us.

If the patient lives or dies, that's only partially because of me or the rescuers. Am I going to be upset with God if the rescue goes awry or south? Not really. I'll wonder why God allowed it to happen but in this field of work, we all know that people die and even though we want everyone to be saved and Rescue 911 proves that hours of CPR will of course save everyone and no-one dies, People die.

Heck, Ak and I are eventually going to die. right Nothing we can do about that.

Do I blame God when things don't go my way? NO not any more than I blame government when things don't go my way. Or blame my family or lifes circumstances.

I will praise God when things do go my way but I don't blame God for the bad things. I will also praise myself if I did something really good or was successful.

I know that praising god for the good things yet not blaming God for the bad things sounds strange but if I blamed God for all the bad things in this world, I'd be doing a lot of blaming. I'm not willing to go there as I think that would make me a very very unhappy and bitter person.

Besides, I don't get to heaven for doing good works. I get there due to my relationship with Christ and that relationship alone. I don't remember the verse off hand but it plainly says that you don't get into heaven by works alone or something like that. I don't have a bible handy.

But it all boils down to whether you believe in God or not. My opinion only, your's may vary.

All this debate started with the simple words "by the grace of God".

Good discussion, makes me think.

[akflightmedic]

Yes but if he has the masterplan, how do you know you are choosing the right action or inaction? See what I am saying? Seems like an easy way out, because if he wanted you to rescue a voice would command or you would be pushed in the right direction. Or if neither of those happen and you stand idly, then that is the plan too? Are you sure? What if it is a test to see what you do when there are no instructions?

I praise myself when things go my way because they are usually a direct result of my actions. When they go poorly, I can usually find where I went wrong as well, but sometimes they are simply external factors which I cannot control. Regardless, good or bad the results were usually because of my actions or choices.

But according to you, to praise when good and refuse to blame when bad...how is that logical? If it was his masterplan, then why is there an issue? Why is it wrong to lay the blame where it belongs? Why only give praise?

[Just Plain Ruff]

Yes but if he has the masterplan, how do you know you are choosing the right action or inaction? See what I am saying? Seems like an easy way out, because if he wanted you to rescue a voice would command or you would be pushed in the right direction. Or if neither of those happen and you stand idly, then that is the plan too? Are you sure? What if it is a test to see what you do when there are no instructions?

I praise myself when things go my way because they are usually a direct result of my actions. When they go poorly, I can usually find where I went wrong as well, but sometimes they are simply external factors which I cannot control. Regardless, good or bad the results were usually because of my actions or choices.

But according to you, to praise when good and refuse to blame when bad...how is that logical? If it was his masterplan, then why is there an issue? Why is it wrong to lay the blame where it belongs? Why only give praise?

Like I said, if I blamed God for everything that went wrong, I'd be a very bitter person.

I praise God because the things that go really right in my life have not been that completely frequent.

I do see what you are saying, but in his masterplan, how do I know that what I'm doing wasn't in his plan. how do I know that my inaction, action, or delaying wasnt what he intended in the first place.

What if there are no instructions, can't answer that because I don't think there are times when there are No instructions, just nothing shown to me as the way but going on the masterplan idea, that may be part of his plan, to remain silent yet he in the end knows what was to happen and what I did was exactly what he was expecting.

So let me ask you this AK, you pointed out above the external factors that you can't control. Explain that. To me external factors that I cannot control could be God putting those external factors in your way. Just me thinking out loud.

[akflightmedic]

External factors are other people's actions/decisions which impact me...those I cannot control. Nothing more, nothing less. What is scary is when those actions/decisions are based on their dogma as opposed to logic.

And a favorite quote:

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then He is not omnipotent. Is He able, but not willing? Then He is malevolent. Is He both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is He neither able nor willing? Then why call Him God?"

Epicurus (c. 341 - c. 270 BC)