Are some rescues just not worth it?

[tniuqs]

I got some pictures of before and after on a river. First picture is a idyllic river and the 2nd picture is a raging torrent of a river, huge undulating waves.

Consider there is a person (alive by grace of god) being swept down the river. The river is only going to get worse downstream.

Do you attempt a swiftwater rescue or not ? Are there some rescues that are just not safe enough.

ALL Swift Water Rescues are inherently UNSAFE.

You never without the proper training, experience, gear, to jeopardize your own life to potentially meet your maker (whom ever that may be) Unless Heroism or Martyrdom is your end game. Or I will get a call (from God or his designate) to go find your beat to rat shit body.

Reach, Throw, Row, DON'T GO !

http://www.saw.usace...ater_safety.htm

Edited August 31, 2011 by tniuqs

[akflightmedic]

Naw man, you cannot just end it and walk away. There are others watching and they will reach in eventually. The discussion is very valid as you are thinking even though you are not answering.

I know it is not your words, it is the words of a man who said god spoke to him. A lunatic in today's society...

Really not much of a stalemate either as the purpose was to further understanding and promote discussion. There is nothing to win or lose, so if youa re done, say you are done but do not try to end it as a no win/no loss situation.

[Just Plain Ruff]

Naw man, you cannot just end it and walk away. There are others watching and they will reach in eventually. The discussion is very valid as you are thinking even though you are not answering.

I know it is not your words, it is the words of a man who said god spoke to him. A lunatic in today's society...

Really not much of a stalemate either as the purpose was to further understanding and promote discussion. There is nothing to win or lose, so if youa re done, say you are done but do not try to end it as a no win/no loss situation.

Fair enough, I will continue.

But weren't they considered lunatics in their society as well?

I inherently believe that there is a heaven and there is a hell. Just because I cannot touch it or feel it or see it (until I get to either one when I die), I will not know if all that I've been led to believe is true or not.

I choose to believe that they exist just as you choose to believe that they don't exist based on your rational thought processes.

Can you honestly say that you are 100% certain that there isn't a heaven or a hell? Can you honestly say that with 100% certainty that millions of christians are wrong?

I am woefully ignorant, soon to change, about other world religions. I got a book on my travels which was used as a textbook for a comparitive religion class at a major university in Baltimore. I have begun to read it but have only scratched the surface of chapter 1.

I am hoping that this book will give me a broad overview of what the tenets and backgrounds of the major world religions are. And heck, it was a evaluation copy for a professor and it was free to me. Yay!

[akflightmedic]

Apparently not since they have followers...charismatic individuals able to swing or influence public action. Those guys still exist today and they are considered con men, not lunatics largely in part due to the society at that time being extremely superstitious, ignorant and illiterate. Control the masses and you control the wealth...how do you control the masses...religion.

Another little tid bit not of my own is the saying "You are every bit an atheist as I am...I take it one god further than you". Think about it, for every single god who has long become mythology, for every other god still in existence, for every reason you disbelieve those gods...I do the same for your god.

I have no need to say 100% Christians are wrong...what I do need to say is their beliefs need not infringe on my life, my values, my existence. That needs to stop.

I am 100% comfortable saying all evidence at this current time presents no logical conclusion that a god or gods exist.

[Just Plain Ruff]

Apparently not since they have followers...charismatic individuals able to swing or influence public action. Those guys still exist today and they are considered con men, not lunatics largely in part due to the society at that time being extremely superstitious, ignorant and illiterate. Control the masses and you control the wealth...how do you control the masses...religion.

Another little tid bit not of my own is the saying "You are every bit an atheist as I am...I take it one god further than you". Think about it, for every single god who has long become mythology, for every other god still in existence, for every reason you disbelieve those gods...I do the same for your god.

I have no need to say 100% Christians are wrong...what I do need to say is their beliefs need not infringe on my life, my values, my existence. That needs to stop.

I am 100% comfortable saying all evidence at this current time presents no logical conclusion that a god or gods exist.

Excellent argument of course.

so are you saying that everything that is around you, everything that has been or will be just gets created out of nothing? How do you rectify that? Something had to have created it? Wouldn't that argue for the existence of some sort of creator? Something cannot just come out of nothing. What was the catalyst for the universe? What created the universe. I think I know what your answer to that would be though.

I won't get into intelligent design or evolution as those are a whole different subject and we could debate that for hours and hours on end.

I also feel 100% comfortable saying that God created everything so our arguments end at a stalemate here as well.

And if you say that we control the masses, that is done by religion. what about the mass of people who do not believe in a God, how do you control them if you don't control them by religion?

do you argue that if you use religion to control the masses that all the other world religions do the same?

I do agree that religion should be at home or in church. I am not in support of religion infringing on my rights, I'm not in support of any religion that infringes on my rights. Do you also argue that if you were in a muslim country that is under Islamic or Sharia(sorry I don't completely know the difference) law that religion is used to control the masses there as well? would you be against that type of control as well?

I don't believe in abortion, not because it's against God's law but because it's killing a baby. I also don't agree with the death penalty, not because God commands it but because kiling one person for killing another is not a good thing. I do believe in Taxes, not because God says give one tenth of your income but because it's the right thing to do though I loathe doing so. I also do believe that I should tithe 10% to the church because both God and myself believe that it's a good thing.

So I don't believe in forcing religious beliefs on anyone, and you will agree that I have never done this here and I have never forced my beliefs on anyone out there. I have shared my beliefs but never forced them.

I don't know what kind of Christian that makes me, but I'm satisfied with my walk.

Should we take this to PM's? Or do you want to continue this here?

[akflightmedic]

Something cannot just come out of nothing.

So please introduce me to god's mommy and daddy and then their parents and so on...oh wait...the something cannot come from nothing argument applies to everything BUT god...my bad. How could I have been so silly to think differently.

[Just Plain Ruff]

So please introduce me to god's mommy and daddy and then their parents and so on...oh wait...the something cannot come from nothing argument applies to everything BUT god...my bad. How could I have been so silly to think differently.

I can't introduce you to them. I have no answer to the question you just asked. You win that round. I've never thought it that way, something for me to think about.

I can't introduce you to them. I have no answer to the question you just asked. You win that round. I've never thought it that way, something for me to think about.

ASide from the condescending response, there is no need to talk to me like I'm a child.

And are you going to delete or strike out every reference to God in these forums like you did to my original post? You have a lot of censuring to do starting with this thread. Better censor everyone who has ever mentioned God on the forums.

The only answer to your question of how God came into existence would be that he has always been here. There hasn't been any period of time that he has not been here, so since he's always been here he has no mother or father.

I think I'm done with this thread.

Edited September 1, 2011 by Ruffems

[akflightmedic]

Censoring???? I have not touched anything...what are you talking about? Why would I censor anything? It gives me nothing to discuss if I remove things...erasing offensive words, books, etc is a religious tactic.

Like I said, I do not find the word god offensive. It has no meaning to me other than a talking point or an infringement on my human rights. Censoring does not fix that last problem, therefore it remains.

God did not exist for a very long time. He is predated by 1000s of gods, but as time went on and man changed, became more intelligent, god evolved as well. This is documented within all religions, they come and go. Christian god is very young relatively speaking in the overall history of gods.

[Just Plain Ruff]

Censoring???? I have not touched anything...what are you talking about? Why would I censor anything? It gives me nothing to discuss if I remove things...erasing offensive words, books, etc is a religious tactic.

Like I said, I do not find the word god offensive. It has no meaning to me other than a talking point or an infringement on my human rights. Censoring does not fix that last problem, therefore it remains.

God did not exist for a very long time. He is predated by 1000s of gods, but as time went on and man changed, became more intelligent, god evolved as well. This is documented within all religions, they come and go. Christian god is very young relatively speaking in the overall history of gods.

My apologies AK, it was one of Squint's replies that he had struck through part of my post. Again my apologies.

Ok, one hypothetical question. If God didn't exist prior to those 1000's of Gods, could they not be one in the same? For arguments sake and my being obstinate - couldn't those God's that came before the Christian god, be the creators of the Christian God therefore negating your stance that God did not come out of nothing therefore he does have his own creator?

Neither of us is going to win this discussion, it's a good one to have as a discussion but your views are entrenched by the way you have lived and mine are entrenched in the way I have lived.

I have no intentions of swaying you to my side, I see that that would be impossible and I don't believe you can sway me to your side as that too is probably impossible. For you, it's all about you and your actions on how things are yet I choose to believe that there is a bigger thing out there. But enough about that.

I would say I would pray for you but I don't think that would be taken as a positive thing by you, but then again, I could be wrong.

Quote God did not exist for a very long time

Are you sure he didn't exist prior to the bible times? Are you 100% sure that up until the bible was written, the language and ability to write things down hadn't come into it's fruition yet?

The bible says that God created the heavens and the earth so since I'm taking that as literal history, then wouldn't if be fair to say that God predated every other god and the 1000's of God's you say existed before him actually existed after him?

God as a written concept or subject only occurred in recent history, compared to the age of the earth/world. So couldn't he have been waiting till the right people came along to Out him, so to speak, to tell his story?

You can answer that or not, I'm actually just thinking out loud and using my fingers to speak it.

I have questions as to things in the bible, sure do. Bet you are surprised at that. I believe the bible is the word of God but I just have a hard time grasping all that was written. There are things in the bible that I question, but I believe that I'm supposed to question those things.

Just as you question everything religious, I question how things came into being without a creator.

But I'm waxing philisophical and I have work to do.

[tniuqs]

My apologies AK, it was one of Squint's replies that he had struck through part of my post.

Whew what a relief ... Yes a post I made was eaten by the server gods during admin's change over, (a couple in other forums too) although I did look for thunderstorms in my area.