Are some rescues just not worth it?

[akflightmedic]

Well see there we go again, there is no way I can convince you that your reality is wrong and there is no way for you to convince me that my reality is wrong.

We are at what we call an impasse.

For your sake, I hope you are wrong. I'd hate to see AK roasting like a marshmallow in hell but remember, I've never once pushed my christian views upon you and I won't begin to start today. That's not what I want to do. I'd love to see you on my side of the argument but that won't happen so all I can do is hope you are wrong.

Let me ask you this one question. You are all for removing all forms of religion from all segments of public life, I get that. But doesn't that make you as bad as organized religion? OR doesn't it make your arguments of a completely secular society as stifling as the religious argument that we need God in our lives? If you say that I as a Christian cannot openly show my faith nor can I do it in public then doesn't that make you as unbending as you accuse christians of being. To me those who promote a secular society and want to push religion out of society are as narrow minded as those who push religion upon those who do not want it pushed upon them.

I'm sure you have some sort of reasoning why Christianity should be relegated to the church buildings and the home. So care to share why by pushing a secular society on those who don't want it pushed makes it right in your eyes.

"For your sake I hope you are wrong" is yet another example of the perceived superiority of Christians. You believe you have a truth which I do not, therefore by definition that makes one of the faith superior to those who are not. Until I know the truth as you do, we are not the same...

You are correct, I will not ever be on the same side as you religiously speaking. I was a very good Bible thumper for many years, I still study the Bible (and other books) and I can quote verses with the best of them. As mentioned earlier, none of it makes sense on a logical or even a rational level. The stories are just as entertaining as all the mythology we long discarded as truth. Bear in mind those gods and beliefs predated today's current religions by 1000s of years. I strongly encourage studying ancient Egyptian gods and their stories and similarity to Christianity. There are so many bits and pieces from so many other religions all which predate Christianity, once you have knowledge of all of these documented historical facts, it is difficult to take anything in the Bible seriously.

What atheists are doing today with the perceived "militant" approaches or "in your face" approach and with the challenging of public infringements is indeed over the top yet necessary. We have stayed at the wayside far too long and the time has come to speak up for ourselves. In order to gain equality, we must over sensationalize certain issues. This is no different than what women, blacks and gays have done in order to gain equal standing.

Prior to this generation and even in this generation, atheists experience ostracism at work and in their personal lives for being "out". It is almost political suicide to profess no faith. Professionals in any field are damn near deemed irrelevant if they profess no faith. Having no faith is met with such disdain and abhorrent behaviors ironically by those "of the faith". How is this justified?

You can display yourself or your faith in public, I have never said you could not. What I have said is do not use TAX dollars to do it, do not use political positions to do it and keep it out of the schools and workplace. You are free to wear a cross just as much as I can wear an A or Star of David or pentagram...whatever I choose. But no matter what I choose, you can not complain if you retain the right to wear yours. How offensive would you find it if I wore an inverted pentagram everyday proudly displayed in the cubicle next to yours? Answer honestly now...what if I tattooed a bar code on my wrist and wore the 666 on my forehead as part of my religion? How would you feel?

The majority does not dictate the rules for all. A secular government is the most fair and balanced approach to satisfy all the various religions, beliefs and non beliefs in this nation. You are free to do all you wish within your homes, your house of worship, your private non tax supported schools, etc.

Matthew 6:6

I push because it is my great nation I share with those of the faith-many faiths not just Christianity. Christianity has been one of the most coddled religions in US history. For hundreds of years it was considered sacrilegious to even question the Church. This is ludicrous, I question everything and you better have good answers or I cannot understand. Answers full of concrete evidence, not feelings and supposition.

[Just Plain Ruff]

"For your sake I hope you are wrong" is yet another example of the perceived superiority of Christians. You believe you have a truth which I do not, therefore by definition that makes one of the faith superior to those who are not. Until I know the truth as you do, we are not the same...

You are correct, I will not ever be on the same side as you religiously speaking. I was a very good Bible thumper for many years, I still study the Bible (and other books) and I can quote verses with the best of them. As mentioned earlier, none of it makes sense on a logical or even a rational level. The stories are just as entertaining as all the mythology we long discarded as truth. Bear in mind those gods and beliefs predated today's current religions by 1000s of years. I strongly encourage studying ancient Egyptian gods and their stories and similarity to Christianity. There are so many bits and pieces from so many other religions all which predate Christianity, once you have knowledge of all of these documented historical facts, it is difficult to take anything in the Bible seriously.

What atheists are doing today with the perceived "militant" approaches or "in your face" approach and with the challenging of public infringements is indeed over the top yet necessary. We have stayed at the wayside far too long and the time has come to speak up for ourselves. In order to gain equality, we must over sensationalize certain issues. This is no different than what women, blacks and gays have done in order to gain equal standing.

Prior to this generation and even in this generation, atheists experience ostracism at work and in their personal lives for being "out". It is almost political suicide to profess no faith. Professionals in any field are damn near deemed irrelevant if they profess no faith. Having no faith is met with such disdain and abhorrent behaviors ironically by those "of the faith". How is this justified?

You can display yourself or your faith in public, I have never said you could not. What I have said is do not use TAX dollars to do it, do not use political positions to do it and keep it out of the schools and workplace. You are free to wear a cross just as much as I can wear an A or Star of David or pentagram...whatever I choose. But no matter what I choose, you can not complain if you retain the right to wear yours. How offensive would you find it if I wore an inverted pentagram everyday proudly displayed in the cubicle next to yours? Answer honestly now...what if I tattooed a bar code on my wrist and wore the 666 on my forehead as part of my religion? How would you feel?

The majority does not dictate the rules for all. A secular government is the most fair and balanced approach to satisfy all the various religions, beliefs and non beliefs in this nation. You are free to do all you wish within your homes, your house of worship, your private non tax supported schools, etc.

Matthew 6:6

I push because it is my great nation I share with those of the faith-many faiths not just Christianity. Christianity has been one of the most coddled religions in US history. For hundreds of years it was considered sacrilegious to even question the Church. This is ludicrous, I question everything and you better have good answers or I cannot understand. Answers full of concrete evidence, not feelings and supposition.

Hmmm well I one time sat next to a satanist. He actually had the tattoo 666 on his hand.

I can't answer how I'd feel as to that person sitting next to me in a cubicle every day but I'll probably be feeling just the same as an outspoken atheist sitting next to me in the office. Both are not my cup of tea but I'm different than many here, I would be uncomfortable but since we live in a world of choices, it's your choice to be an atheist, or an agnostic. Your choice to be a christian or a devil worshipper.

I won't like I tell you but it's not illegal and not in my purveyance to say they cant work where I work. I can tell you that I probably would have some pretty good and heated arguments and discussions.

Would I find a different place to work? Who knows, maybe maybe not.

I've never been in that position with the 666 thing.

You can also were whatever form of jewelry that identifies you as to what ever you believe in. I can't regulate that and I won't regulate it.

I do hope you are wrong in what you believe. I'm not saying that in a superiority complex, I'm just saying that from my standpoint you are wrong in your beliefs of NO god and I hope that you are wrong in your beliefs but I'm not about to force you to choose between God or Allah or Jehovah or Germaine the potter or whatever religion I follow. I'm not here to convert you.

Yet you believe that my beliefs have no basis in fact and does that not come back to you believing that you are superior than I am for my beliefs. You do indeed ridicule them, you have admitted to doing that in a previous post on this thread so doesn't that make you fall into some sort of superiority complex as well?

I think that your comment about politicians or public figures who profess no faith being ostracized, I think that goes way back to the beginnings of the country. Church was usually the meeting place of the entire community. Schools were usually held in the church building. The community really revolved around the church building. Most activities were held at the church or within the sight of the church.

Many politicians went in front of church congregations to stump so to speak.

So after many many years of this activity and then moving into the age where it was possible to meet a larger audience via the television or radio, the underlying involvement of the church stayed right there.

IF you professed no faith, those who vote would wonder what you really believed in. I think that with the president so visible in american life and many predecessors of the current president that actively went to church that it's going to take a major shift in our society to relegate religion to the back burner in politics and public life. If you don't go to church as a elected official, what's wrong with you?(that is the perception and is what is seen by the voting public).

If you want to get elected, I do care about your faith but I'm more interested in how you will vote on a particular issue such as unemployment, jobs creation, road construction, abortion, and many other issues. I know that as a christian I abhor abortion because it's the killing of a baby and for all of you who know me, we've had some really intense pregnancies up to and including losing a baby at 17 weeks so those who take the life of a baby, I don't look at it on a religious ground, I look at it as the killing of a baby.

I vote the issues not the religious phrases at the time. Not my style.

So how can a secular government satisfy the fairness requirement for all the religions that you wish it to? One religion will take offense over some perceived slight, now do not go directly to accuse christians as the ones who will do this, others will as well and Atheists are pretty vocal if they don't like what's happening, you said it yourself so maybe Atheists will be the first to complain. I do not know. You can't be all to everyone, it just cannot be done.

I do agree that religion should be kept out of politics, government and I do NOT believe that you need to be forced or perceived to be forced by christianity to do certain things, that's not right in the least. So I will agree to the secular government portion of your argument. But I think it's going to be a very very long time and a very steep hill that must be climbed to reach what you are wanting. Sort of the everest of goals.

Edited September 7, 2011 by Ruffems

[chbare]

Any chance we can get back on topic? Otherwise, this thread has run it's useful course IMHO.

[Just Plain Ruff]

I'm up for that. AK and I can take this to PM's if he wants to. OR we can let it die an ugly death.

[akflightmedic]

I won't like I tell you but it's not illegal and not in my purveyance to say they cant work where I work. I can tell you that I probably would have some pretty good and heated arguments and discussions.

No we wouldn't because like most atheists I know, we do not discuss religion at work and since we do not display things which would prompt conversation from coworkers, nor do we inquire when we see their displays (jewelry or on desk) or react to their comments (until it infringes on personal space) most would never have a clue what I do or no not believe...so you would be safe Ruff. We do not eat babies either FYI.

I do hope you are wrong in what you believe.

Again, this is ludicrous. It is never enough to let someone be what they are. I do not need you wishing better for my "afterlife" nor do I need to be blessed when I sneeze. (Another superstitious reaction deeply imbedded in Christian culture).

Yet you believe that my beliefs have no basis in fact and does that not come back to you believing that you are superior than I am for my beliefs. You do indeed ridicule them, you have admitted to doing that in a previous post on this thread so doesn't that make you fall into some sort of superiority complex as well?

You are correct, there is no basis of fact. It has been requested many times but is yet to appear. In previous comments I asked a few things which you have yet to respond to. When amputees regenerate limbs I will then be convinced of divine medical miracles. Unseen illnesses spontaneously improving but never an actual visible medical miracle is yet to be seen. I also made a comment about "if all traces of a religion were eliminated, that religion would be lost forever in that particular belief, tradition, etc--if all science were lost, it would eventually be rediscovered in the exact same method it is today as it does not change--it remains constant."

Answer these questions:

1. Do you believe you have a higher truth I have yet to discover?

2. By having a higher truth which I do not possess, does this not make one superior to another? Does it not place one in a position to judge?

I think that your comment about politicians or public figures who profess no faith being ostracized, I think that goes way back to the beginnings of the country. Church was usually the meeting place of the entire community. Schools were usually held in the church building. The community really revolved around the church building. Most activities were held at the church or within the sight of the church.

The beginnings...The beginnings according to actual historical documents or the beginnings according to David Barton?

How about the Treaty of Tripoli? How about the Constitution?

So after many many years of this activity and then moving into the age where it was possible to meet a larger audience via the television or radio, the underlying involvement of the church stayed right there.

The Church should never be involved in politics. A quick survey of world history shows repeatedly how bad of an idea this is.

So how can a secular government satisfy the fairness requirement for all the religions that you wish it to? One religion will take offense over some perceived slight, now do not go directly to accuse christians as the ones who will do this, others will as well and Atheists are pretty vocal if they don't like what's happening, you said it yourself so maybe Atheists will be the first to complain. I do not know. You can't be all to everyone, it just cannot be done.

Well there are over a dozen countries I know of which are secular in their government. They do not rape, murder, steal or eat babies. They have very healthy populations overall and are not bare naked hedonists running amok (although that does sound appealing).

I do agree that religion should be kept out of politics, government and I do NOT believe that you need to be forced or perceived to be forced by christianity to do certain things, that's not right in the least. So I will agree to the secular government portion of your argument. But I think it's going to be a very very long time and a very steep hill that must be climbed to reach what you are wanting. Sort of the everest of goals.

Well maybe there is hope for you after all....

I am now boarding a plane for my 14 hour flight to Dubai, so all talks are on hold for a bit.

I think I will do the moderation or admin....and like many other threads...tangents occur. This conversation ahs been interesting and a lot has been shared. Many have read it but not commented.

If you do not like it....do not open it. Quite simple really.

See ya'll in a day or two.

[Just Plain Ruff]

1. Do you believe you have a higher truth I have yet to discover?

2. By having a higher truth which I do not possess, does this not make one superior to another? Does it not place one in a position to judge?

Number 1 - Nope - you have already studied and known God and you decided that there were too many questions and missing links to put your faith in him. I may not be there yet, but you have definately given me something to think about. And believe me I am. But I have to rectify my faith and your truth. Tough to do.

And Number 2 is a moot point because I don't believe that I have a higher truth that you have yet to discover.

And a return question to you.

How do you plan on making government and public/political society a secular society when faith is so integrally intermingled within it? How do you plan on removing God or any religion from public life? I honestly think it will be impossible to do. I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on that matter.

[akflightmedic]

1. Do you believe you have a higher truth I have yet to discover?

2. By having a higher truth which I do not possess, does this not make one superior to another? Does it not place one in a position to judge?

Number 1 - Nope - you have already studied and known God and you decided that there were too many questions and missing links to put your faith in him. I may not be there yet, but you have definately given me something to think about. And believe me I am. But I have to rectify my faith and your truth. Tough to do.

And Number 2 is a moot point because I don't believe that I have a higher truth that you have yet to discover.

And a return question to you.

How do you plan on making government and public/political society a secular society when faith is so integrally intermingled within it? How do you plan on removing God or any religion from public life? I honestly think it will be impossible to do. I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on that matter.

Ruff you are not being honest. Let me rephrase.

1. Do you believe that by knowing Jesus and being saved, you are going to go to Heaven (this is a tenet of Christianity)?

2. Do you believe that if I do not acknowledge or abide by #1 above then I am going to hell?

The answer from any Christian will be Yes to both #1 and #2.

Therefore, by believing those two things, it puts you the believer in a position of having a higher "truth" than I do as I will suffer for all eternity for simply not acknowledging this "truth".

So yes, by definition you do believe you have a higher truth, this is the very basic foundation of your religion. So by acknowledging this truth, it automatically puts the believer in a position to judge as that is what you/they do every single day. They judge those not of the same faith...you judge me to hell if I do not accept your truth. You judge all the millions of people on this planet who had the "misfortune" of being born in a place where Christianity does not exist. You have judged all those who have died too young in life, or those who were never reached by those who think they must spread the word.

Now you may cross your arms and say "I dont judge, that is for my God to do" but seriously...I have yet to see him ever step down and judge anyone for anything. And if it is up to him to judge, then why continue to remind me or others we will suffer eternal torment (not you specifically Ruff). This is where it gets too silly for me. We do everything in our power to tell our children there is no boogey man under the bed, we turn on lights, we look under the bed, we may do silly bed time routine to ward off the boogeyman...we do this repeatedly until that child finally KNOWS there is no boogeyman...some take years...because they BELIEVE there is one.

Despite all of our disproving of the boogeyman or closet monster, as adults we inflict it on everyone...too damn funny. The devil is gonna get ya, dont do that, the devil is in you! And if not the devil...it is...God is watching, God is gonna roast your ass for that one. Uh oh, you better believe, eternity sure is a long time for you to be tortured by my all knowing, all powerful, all loving god. I mean seriously, he just wants to be praised, raise his ego a bit...we are his tinker toys...otherwise he will show you who is boss....get your marshmallows.

As for your second part, education and information is step 1. I will not be the one to enact these changes but I will support and inform as much as possible now, to spread awareness, to display hypocrisy and to protect my tax dollars. At NO TIME in this discussion have I stated remove religion from public life. I have continuously mentioned schools and government and not using tax dollars. Do not cloud the issue and put words in my mouth which I did not say. I have asked for fair representation in public displays, for example if I want to put up a Free Thinkers sign or an Atheist sign, I should be allowed to just as easily as the Christians put up theirs (even with private dollars). But this is not the case, Christians get a free pass, those opposed do not and then they have to go to court to fight for their already guaranteed freedom of speech, make headlines and cause drama.

FYI, the integration of faith and politics was seriously solidified during the McCarthy error and our knee jerk response to communism. Our country is not a Christian nation, nor was it ever intended that way. Did you even reference the documents I sent your way....or is David Barton in his colorful shirts enough...he is for most believers as it is way easier to allow someone else do the homework.

[Just Plain Ruff]

Ok, your rephrasing of the questions made more sense to me and the answer to both is yes.

I didn't think I was putting words in your mouth but maybe when I said public life I meant the public life of lets say politics and schools and that area. Not personal public life.

I don't remember the documents you sent my way, was it in a post or a pm? I also do not know who David Barton is so I can't say I have a common frame of reference on him.

I'll look up mr barton, curious to see what he has to say.

As for your second part, education and information is step 1. I will not be the one to enact these changes but I will support and inform as much as possible now, to spread awareness, to display hypocrisy and to protect my tax dollars. At NO TIME in this discussion have I stated remove religion from public life. I have continuously mentioned schools and government and not using tax dollars. Do not cloud the issue and put words in my mouth which I did not say. I have asked for fair representation in public displays, for example if I want to put up a Free Thinkers sign or an Atheist sign, I should be allowed to just as easily as the Christians put up theirs (even with private dollars). But this is not the case, Christians get a free pass, those opposed do not and then they have to go to court to fight for their already guaranteed freedom of speech, make headlines and cause drama.

You are more than welcome to put up your Freethinkers sign or atheist sign. I have no issue with this. You are more than welcome to burn the cross or spout hate speech like the Westboro baptist church does. You are more than welcome to burn anything in effigy that you wish to. That's free speech no matter how much I don't like it you are welcome to do it because thats protected speech. But like you said, I am also welcome to putting a cross on my lawn or a religious display in the yard.

[akflightmedic]

While YOU personally voice no objection, as a whole it is not treated that way. this is my problem.

Also, politics and schools are tax payer funded, therefore religion should not be a part of it...simple, clear cut.

[Just Plain Ruff]

Fair enough. I am all for the division of religion from politics. But I see a big problem with the attempting to cut religion from Politics.

It can't and more than likely will not be done. It's too ingrained in our history. The voting public(the majority) expect to have some statement of faith by the candidates. I don't see that going away any time soon, do you?

How do you proposed to make that happen.

I can also see no religion in public schools but do you see anything wrong with a small group of students using a school classroom after hours in school for meeting to discuss like minded ideas like religion or sports or whatnot?

If the group of students rents out the space would that make it ok for them to hold a religious group in the school classroom where that might be the only place that they can all come together? I don't see an issue with it as long as every group that meets in a school has to pay the same amount. I know that's not often done though.

I'm just having a hard time wrapping my finger around how to remove religion from public(politics and tax supported) life.

I do see where you are coming from though and I think it is unfortunate that that's where we are as a society.