Religious topic spinoff from another thread

[ERDoc]

http://grsouth.wzzm13.com/news/news/61192-you-dont-need-god-billboard-us-131

Discuss.

[akflightmedic]

Nice to see my donations being put to good use!

And no, I give to many different causes not just the one that promotes public signage lessening the stigma of atheism.

Freedom From Religion Foundation, Secular Student Alliance (scholarships/awareness) are my two main ones due to exposure. But then I have many smaller groups I donate to. I am very careful when choosing as I want no religious influence. A homeless man should never have to sit through a sermon to get a sandwich!

Anyways, regarding the signs, they are going up everywhere. They are even being put on the side of public buses-that one created a HUGE issue as it was denied at first.

If I can drive down the road and see an all black billboard with white writing given some stupid saying and the author is "god"...then I absolutely have every right to put signs exposing the real atheists for the kind, caring, intellectuals we are.

When signs like these appear, the real danger is the person behind this sign.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://thevillageheathen.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/atheist_billboard.jpg&imgrefurl=http://thevillageheathen.wordpress.com/2010/06/20/atheist-billboards-2/&h=375&w=500&sz=45&tbnid=drs80n4JeQdMZM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=120&prev=/search%3Fq%3Datheist%2Bbillboards%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=atheist+billboards&docid=EvLycHBk9O1lCM&sa=X&ei=dT9hTryvOYW3tweqwOX2Dw&ved=0CCgQ9QEwAQ&dur=3635

When patriotism and religion are portrayed as synonymous...that is a very dangerous and slippery slope.

I am very patriotic. believing or not believing in a god has absolutely nothing to do with how I care for my country. This is a insult to the average American intelligence as they are trying to convince the masses that if there is no god then you are not an American which is utter bull shit. Thousands of Americans have died for this country, thousands of Atheists, Freethinkers, Agnostics, Secularists, and every other religion every thought of. To equate the christian god with patriotism is extremely dishonest and an unfair comparison.

[HERBIE1]

I have no problem with the sign. Private donations, private company put up the sign- perfectly acceptable. If you believe in some flavor of deity- fine. If you worship a rock, a shrine of Elvis, or nothing at all- your business.

I will disagree with AK on one thing about the homeless guy being forced into listening to a God lecture. If a religious group is offering the meal, then they get to dictate the terms of that meal. Around here, there are many shelters run by private firms- either churches or other religious groups. The city shelters may have more beds but they have far fewer locations. I've dealt with a few homeless guys who cite not wanting to hear the religious service as a condition of their bed and/or meal. Actually, I think they really object to the idea of no tolerance for alcohol or drugs in these facilities. Many also claim their belongings are not safe in these shelters, diseases are easily transmitted, or some folks are simply happier living on the streets, on their own terms.

But- these folks DO know what the requirements of their local shelters are- curfews, times doors open and close, which allow smoking, how many beds,- and yes, which ones subject them to a religious sermon. You don't like God with your meal and cot-fine- you move on down the road to the next one, or simply take your chances on the streets- as many of them do every day.

[akflightmedic]

No mistake about it, I understand rules and regs when it is you who is doling it out (curfews, no drugs...these are all reasonable). What I do not like is the preaching being mandated if you are hungry or homeless. In my opinion that goes against the teachings of the christian values. You give because you can, because you care. Let your actions speak louder than your words. But when you take a person who is undergoing what may be the most downtrodden time of their life, and insist they listen to YOUR beliefs, or try to convert them to YOUR beliefs before you give a helping hand--that is wrong.

I give because I care about my fellow man. Life sucks, bad things happen and we help each other stand up.

[HERBIE1]

No mistake about it, I understand rules and regs when it is you who is doling it out (curfews, no drugs...these are all reasonable). What I do not like is the preaching being mandated if you are hungry or homeless. In my opinion that goes against the teachings of the christian values. You give because you can, because you care. Let your actions speak louder than your words. But when you take a person who is undergoing what may be the most downtrodden time of their life, and insist they listen to YOUR beliefs, or try to convert them to YOUR beliefs before you give a helping hand--that is wrong.

I give because I care about my fellow man. Life sucks, bad things happen and we help each other stand up.

What about being lectured about the evils of drug and alcohol abuse? Lots of folks have zero desire to hear about those things either. What about lectures on proper handling of finances so you don't end up on the streets? It's just talk. Unless they are being forced to convert to Christianity in order to eat, I see no harm in listening- even if you don't like what someone has to say.

[ERDoc]

No mistake about it, I understand rules and regs when it is you who is doling it out (curfews, no drugs...these are all reasonable). What I do not like is the preaching being mandated if you are hungry or homeless. In my opinion that goes against the teachings of the christian values. You give because you can, because you care. Let your actions speak louder than your words. But when you take a person who is undergoing what may be the most downtrodden time of their life, and insist they listen to YOUR beliefs, or try to convert them to YOUR beliefs before you give a helping hand--that is wrong.

I give because I care about my fellow man. Life sucks, bad things happen and we help each other stand up.

Agreed. The difference between this and not allowing drugs and alcohol into the shelter is a safety issue. Put a bunch of people, kids included into a confined area and allow people who are drunk and high to intermingle. What do you think will happen?

[DwayneEMTP]

My main issue, amongst many, with most, though not all, of the 'devoutly' religious that I know...

http://www.angryduck.com/pics/God_Is_Amazing.htm

My brother in law is one of the most educated Christians I know. If there is a God I believe that he is the blueprint that we would all be meant to follow. If you want to talk religion, he is more than happy to share his joy with you, if you're not religious, he's not at all confused your lack of faith. I would have no issues if that was the stereotypical Christian.

Religion always makes for interesting conversation...

Dwayne

[HERBIE1]

Agreed. The difference between this and not allowing drugs and alcohol into the shelter is a safety issue. Put a bunch of people, kids included into a confined area and allow people who are drunk and high to intermingle. What do you think will happen?

I get the difference, but my point remains. Rules are still rules, and I honestly don't think it's a problem, imposition, or inappropriate to subject someone to a sermon about God if that is what the shelter is all about.

How about this for an analogy- albeit a bit odd? Time share condo presentations. They offer you a free TV, a pair of airline tickets etc, if you attend a time share condo sales pitch. If you want the freebie, you must listen to the high pressure pitch for the joys of time share condos. You'll get your freebie in the end, but you don't have to actually buy the condo- regardless of how hard they pressure you.

Same for the God lecture at a shelter.. They can't force you to "find God", but you do need to listen to the sales pitch to get your freebie. In both cases you know going in what will be expected of you.

[DwayneEMTP]

I absolutely get what you're saying Herbie, but see it a little different based on one fact.

The shelter, and the preachers, are using my money to buy the sandwich and shelter that they are holding hostage until the needy succumbs to their wishes.

Due to their tax status, much of what is being given away has actually come from taxless profits from their church which means that I have paid their share of taxes, which also means, to my little pea brain, that I own at least part of that sandwich, right?

Not to mention (why do we say that about things that we are in fact about to mention?) that some (many? I'm not sure) are wholly, or nearly so, subsidized by government (read: My) money, and therefore not theirs to bargain with.

If I offer a needy person $100 dollars with the understanding that they have to allow me to try and convince them of my beliefs, then I have no issues with it at all.

If you give me $100 to help the needy and I still force the needy to allow me to try and convert them to my beliefs, which in this case are radically different than yours, without your permission, I have issues with that. See?

Dwayne

[akflightmedic]

I get the difference, but my point remains. Rules are still rules, and I honestly don't think it's a problem, imposition, or inappropriate to subject someone to a sermon about God if that is what the shelter is all about.

How about this for an analogy- albeit a bit odd? Time share condo presentations. They offer you a free TV, a pair of airline tickets etc, if you attend a time share condo sales pitch. If you want the freebie, you must listen to the high pressure pitch for the joys of time share condos. You'll get your freebie in the end, but you don't have to actually buy the condo- regardless of how hard they pressure you.

Same for the God lecture at a shelter.. They can't force you to "find God", but you do need to listen to the sales pitch to get your freebie. In both cases you know going in what will be expected of you.

Your comparison is not valid. When you choose to go to a time share pitch, you know what is coming--a hard sales pitch. Where do these time share pitches take place? IN tourist areas, places where you are already on vacation 99% of the time. Vacation!! So you either drove, flew or cruised to somewhere nice, you are in feel good state of mind with your loved ones or friends...and they try to capitalize on that current mental status to sell you a time share. It is one of the hardest sells a consumer will ever walk into and a lot do not walk out without signing on the dotted line unfortunately.

Regardless, the thing I wish to point out in the above scenario is no one was hungry, no one was homeless and no one was jobless. Overall they are happy as they are on vacation spending disposable income (money they don't need).

On the flip side, you are trying to compare this to a man, woman or family who has lost their home or are living in a hotel, they experience hunger daily, they have no job or one that pays not enough to live on, and they most certainly do NOT take vacations unless you consider moving from one city park to another a holiday.

Their state of mind is one of despair, hurt, anger, lost, sad, misery...at least this is what we "rich" people assume. The church, ministry whatever sees this condition and soars in. Salvation gets ya food, salvation gets ya shelter...this is bullshit.

This is psychology at work here in both scenarios however what pisses me off is in the first group no one is hurting and they enter the hot seat willingly.

In the second group, one group is using/taking advantage of the lesser group.

A person who has a job and money can walk away from a sales pitch. I have done the time share excursions for the free stuff and I enjoy the challenge of saying no to a hard sell.

A person without these things, someone hungry...and you feel the need to dangle food in front of them but only after they listen....listen to the very story that says give to the needy, care for one another because you can. This is major hypocrisy. I would expect a christian to give as freely as I do with no restrictions on the gift.

Kick a man when he is down and claim you are helping him. Of course in truth, I know the church loves war, famine, mass illness and global disasters. They love the economy tanking as "it brings them in the door". Pretty amazing when a group has to desire bad things occur to good people to increase their membership so they may spoon feed them the end goal desire of wanting the ultimate bad thing to happen--end of times.