9/11 Ten Years Later

[Kaisu]

Hey Doc... they look different from us right? so they must be bad.

[DwayneEMTP]

The question was for Dwayne but thanks. In his case it was relevant because it is directly related to his own question.

I never see your posts as attacks brother, and if they were based in logic I wouldn't mind if they were.

I had no idea of the Pope's name, but I would likely have gone with John, or Paul, had I guessed. :-)

But as the Doc said, I'm not sure it's the same point, as if I hear, "The Pope said...." I assume it really is the Pope, as I'm not aware of anyone pretending to that position, and that he is representing Catholics as a whole.

But, maybe I'm missing your point?

I deeply agree that the ignorance runs deep, often among the educated as well. We kind of think that the haters would be "backwoods" ignorant people, but prejudice and fear are not exclusive to the uneducated. Many Americans don't understand multiculturalism.

And yet, wasn't it you that made a comment akin to it being a shame that ground zero should be redeveloped in the shadow of a mosque?

I believe one of the most intelligent, American, things that we could have done was to embrace the mosque at it's current location. To show the world that we refused to embrace panic and ignorance. To make the statement that we would ALWAYS come down on the side of justice, to the best of our ability, regardless of the hysteria. But instead, once again, we've chosen to victimize our Muslim brothers and sisters, as we did to the Japanese generations ago, and I believe that we would have had more or less the same response had we been financially able to do so. With most Americans in full support.

This has been, in my opinion, an amazing conversation. I've learned from it and hope that both sides continue to be represented for a bit...

Dwayne

Edited to add text in italics, no posts followed at the time of edit.

Edited September 12, 2011 by DwayneEMTP

[hatelilpeepees]

Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice shame on me:

Here is a list of terrorists attacks from the last 3 years, and granted it is not 100% "Muslim" generated, but they do seem to be mentioned alot:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents,_2009

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents,_2010

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents,_2011

I am in no way suggesting that we burn mosques or create some sort of genocide, but to ignore this problem is what allowed 9/11 to happen to begin with.

[HERBIE1]

Dwayne, There is a huge difference between understanding and tolerance and an outright insult to folks who lost friends and family in NYC. I've made this comparison before. Should we have allowed a Japanese memorial, honoring Kamikazi pilots of WW2 to be built at Pearl Harbor? At what point does being magnanimous stop and being plain old foolish start?

Spin it any way you like, but EVERY SINGLE ATTACKER on that day was Muslim, perpetrating their crime in the name of Islam. I certainly will not give the Catholic church a pass, but the Crusades was hundreds of years ago. Let's keep it present day. I have no problem speaking out against ANY religion if warranted.

Do I paint a broad brush- believe it or not, I actually do with the Catholic church. They have inherent, deeply rooted problems that made me stop being a practicing catholic. Example: When my son was attending a catholic grade school, I found out that the rectory was hiding an "accused"(meaning he had yet to be prosecuted) pedophile priest-living within 500 feet of the grade school. I raised holy hell and soon this pervert was moved on to another unsuspecting parish. I was absolutely flabbergasted they would do such a thing, and I was actually accused of being unChristian for being judgmental and unforgiving. I nearly punched out this priest.

The underwear bomber, the shoe bomber, the 9/11 attackers, the USS Cole attackers, the US Embassy attackers, the marine base bombers, the Ft Hood massacre- some homegrown, some foreign, but they were all MUSLIM, either they adopted the religion or were by birth. Not all Muslims are terrorists, but around 99% of the terrorists are Muslim. Unpleasant? I guess, UnPC? Sure, but it's also a fact.

[Richard B the EMT]

We had ignorant (mostly white) Americans going after people who weren't even Muslim. They were going after Sikhs and Hindus.

I consider my community to be farely well mixed, both racially and religion-wise, however, the darker skinned Guyanese men, who worked at the local gas stations were assaulted.

[DwayneEMTP]

...This is probably a re-gurge of an worn out mare but I think it is a shame that there is a mosque being built precisely at ground zero. My reasons are simple. I understand the history of the construction of mosque through time, and think I understand the relevance of this particular building....

If you understand all of those things, then you understand that it can cost them tens of millions of dollars to make a move at this point in the process. In the interest of being fair are you then willing to sponsor the move with tax dollars as they're being asked to move secondary to something beyond their control?

Or are you suggesting that they should donate that money out of kindness, in the spirit of understanding the feelings of many people, the same way that others have considered the feelings of the Muslim while being accused of the murders of thousands of innocents that there is not a shred of evidence that they were involved in? They fear for their mosque, for thier businesses, for the safety of their families when out in the community, but they are being inconsiderate? That thinking is just craziness to me...

...I don't believe it is about giving people a place to worship but more about making a mockery of American freedom and our way of life.

So then it's your accusation that the builders and worshipers of the mosque were implicit in the destruction of the Twin Towers therefore planning their celebratory mosque before the destruction of the towers? Man...there's a lot to prove there brother...

...Although locally some congregants are sincere, radical’s around the world are laughing at America because once again, they used our laws and freedom against us. They will have built a shrine to destruction.

The mosque was in the planning long, long before any of this. They haven't used our laws against us to build their shrine, we, the hysterical American people are trying to use intimidation and force to move them against their will, as they have no basis to do so within the law.

...As far as Muslims, I treat all people with respect until they prove they are not worthy.

Now you're talking out of your ass brother, as you would move the mosque, costing the followers of that mosque tens of millions, (my guess as to changing the plans and purchasing another suitable piece of property at the cities high population areas.) Though you have no reason to believe that the followers have an connection to the crime yet you will still penalize them for it.

...So if they are not blowing people up or plotting against us I couldn't care less. Even so, it is undeniable that the teachings of Islam call for violence and trickery against the infidels. I don't know what you believe but I am definitely an infidel to them.

I challenge you to validate that with actual teachings from the Koran. Not some Wiki shit, but actual quotes, as well as show how mainstream Muslims apply that hatred to their daily lives in our (Mine, yours and theirs) country.

...So I don't think my ideas are dichotomous. Just realistic. I understand that many want our destruction and they are wrong. I believe that the rest silently condone the radical. They would have to in order to stay true to their religious faith.

Based on that belief then you have to also believe that all Christians condone child molestation, bombings of public buildings filled with innocent people, and the murdering of doctors. Or do your thoughts of silent agreement only apply to Muslims?

...My idea was the you were premising Hatelilpee’s knowledge of Muslims on wither or not she could name their leaders. I thought it reasonable to see if you could name the ones you were referencing. Just trying to even the playing field.

Fair enough, though I felt that she was arguing the Doc's statement that there is not central representative body for Muslims, and I still believe that to be true. It was a simple, though unanswered, question I believe. From whom would you have accepted those statements and have believed that they were speaking for the majority of Muslims?

...If I had known I was going to be compelled to write all of this I probably wouldn’t have asked.

I hear you brother, as I've spent way more time on it than planned. Though I don't regret a single minute.

...Interesting link

Edited to insert link

No time now for the link, though I'll try and get back to it later.

Dwayne

Edited to add the second paragraph of my comments and to fix a few grammatical errors.

Edited September 13, 2011 by DwayneEMTP

[DwayneEMTP]

Fair enough Brother...

For me it's an important topic not only because of my feelings developed while living in Afg, but more so because I see people attacking my friends and neighbors. It's not so much political as social. I won't allow people to attack my gay, lesbian, black, Chinese, fat, mentally challenged neighbors, and so it goes with our religious neighbors as well.

It's been a good conversation and I'm completely on board with the failed cost/benefit analysis.

Thanks for participating...I'll see you in the medical threads..

Dwayne

[DwayneEMTP]

Last point, just to be clear, and then I'll leave you be in this thread, I promise.

I didn't make my point very well before. At no point did I believe that you were, or would, attack these folks. I was speaking of those that do, and are. Not only violently, but in trying to take away their legally purchased property.

I'm grateful you stayed to participate. Being wrong occupies nearly as much time for me as my full time job. I'm always grateful for a contrary opinion as it allows/forces me to more thoroughly think through the opinions that I hold now. And If I'm proved wrong...what a gift. Someone has then allowed me to move forward tomorrow more intelligent than I was today..not that that takes any great doing...

I have nothing but respect for each of your opinions, the way you chose to present them, and the honesty in explaining that you weren't mentally/emotionally invested enough in the topic to want to continue to participate, instead of just disappearing.

Each of those things, in my opinion, represent the best of what we do here at the City.

Dwayne