Detroit EMS?

CPhT · September 16, 2011

In talking with some classmates and the instructor (who used to run private calls in Detroit circa 1985), as well as some DPD and DFD friends, it seems like we have a pretty messed up system here in "the D". I've never witnessed it for myself, as I moved out of Brightmoore in 1990, but how are things like in Detroit (proper) these days?

What is the whole "feel" of the system, compared to the reputation it gets from the media? It seems like every other week, you have Charley LeDuff or Steve Walczeck or some other reporter banging on the door, accusing another official of corruption. Then, there's the budget problems. Then, there's the equipment problems.

And then there's the citizens... I've heard horror stories about places like the Jefferson Projects and Cass Corridor. Are there "no fly zones" for EMS, as in the bad areas where you just don't go?

Is it all just way overblown? Trying to scare the suburbanites into approving that millage so "we don't end up like Detroit"?

Let's hear it, I know someone around here works/ has worked in Detroit before, so let's hear your side of things.

Lone Star · September 16, 2011

I worked EMS in the Detroit area in the mid 90's, and from what I saw about DEMS, their reputation is well deserved. They were continually being investigated for theft (material possessions, patient's meds etc). They also were in the news for not going into places like 'The Cass Corridor) unless they had PD back up. They were even investigated for poor patient care/negligence on more than one occasion.

Yes, Detroit has some 'unsavory areas, (like Ferndale, the 'Cass Corridor', Highland Park and Harper Woods), but a lot of the problems encountered by Detroit EMS and some of the other private services were 'self inflicted'. Take the incident involving Taylor Ambulance ... their crews thought it was great fun to pull up behind people in Highland Park and while going down Woodward Ave and hit the lights and siren just to watch the people in the cars 'freak out'. One day while they were posted at Detroit Osteopathic Hospital in Highland Park, someone pulled a 'drive by' and pumped 5 rounds from a shotgun through their truck. Funny thing is, that was my 'base station', and our truck was never touched (simply because that our crews treated people with the respect that they deserved).

We didn't pull the stunts that Taylor Ambulance pulled, we didn't harrass people on the PA system in the truck, we didn't drive down the streets like we were the only vehicle allowed to be on the road; you get the idea...

Detroit EMS had a habit of dismissing people who weren't in EMS as insignificant, and their paramedics wouldn't talk to anyone of lower license levels than them, unless they absolutely HAD to.

I've worked areas up and down Woodward Ave, Gratiot, Telegraph and all along the Lodge Freeway and never had an incident that even came close to what Detroit EMS, Taylor Ambulance (later Laidlaw) and others had. We were continually called to the 'Cass Corridor' (affectionately known locally as 'Blood Alley'), Harper Woods, Highland Park and Ferndale.

CPhT · September 19, 2011

Hmm, I'm almost morbidly curious about Taylor Ambulance. My EMS instructor worked from them (I believe in the early 80s) and he claims he got out "right about when things started getting bad". Some of the stories he tells are pretty shocking, regarding things that were done or said with patients present. He actually mentioned one of their trucks getting shot up so I wonder if that's the same incident.

I've read up about some stations and I guess it's just a matter of your level of paranoia, but I've discussed with my wife what I'd be doing if I was ever working in some of the shadier Detroit areas. I know you're supposed to retreat from unsafe scenes, but who's really to say if the scene STAYS safe, especially in some place like Brightmore or Cass Corridor.

HERBIE1 · September 19, 2011

As someone who spent years in the worst places in town(no, not Detroit) and running 25+ calls in 24 hours every day, I can attest to the potential danger. Had a few close calls, but generally we are NOT the targets. That said, we can get caught up in the middle of things that have nothing to do with us. It happens. That's when experience, common sense, and good peripheral vision are vital. In these areas, entire neighborhoods could be considered "unsafe", so the notion of an "unsafe scene" can be misleading. As long as you do not see an immediate threat to yourself or your patient, then there is no reason not to respond. We also developed good working relationships with the local cops. Because they worked in a high crime, violent area, they knew there was a better than average chance they may need our services so it was in their best interests to keep an eye on us. We did not cry wolf, so when we called them, we NEEDED them ASAP, and they knew it. Often times they would see us on a scene, pull over and stick around, just to make sure we were OK. I cannot tell you how much that helped our peace of mind.

My point is, in busy urban areas you will learn the job. You will see more in a week than many people get to experience in their entire careers. Is it for the faint of heart? Nope. You need self confidence, maybe a bit of bravado, and your patience will be tested on a regular basis. If you treat folks with respect, you generally will get that respect in return. If you work in an area on a regular basis, the neighborhood will get to know you, know what type of person you are, and know if you treat people right. That said, unfortunately you also cannot control what other crews do, or how they behave, so if you have a rouge crew who are acting like a'holes, you end up dealing with the fallout.

Here's a little tip that was shared with me years ago by a local gang banger- generally folks in the ghettos are HAPPY to see us and fire suppression. When we show up, we are trying to help someone. Unfortunately, law enforcement does not see that since more often than not, when the cops show up, someone is likely to lose their freedom, or the cops are looking to take away someone's source of "income". When we would arrive in the housing projects, the gang bangers who were lookouts for the buildings would actually announce our presence- meaning we were NOT the police, and to give us safe passage, hold the elevators, clear the hallways, etc. We would even occasionally have the thugs helping to carry equipment, or help restore calm in a chaotic situation. They knew we were there to do a job, not to mess with them or their "business".

Good luck- hope it helps.

As someone who spent years in the worst places in town(no, not Detroit) and running 25+ calls in 24 hours every day, I can attest to the potential danger. Had a few close calls, but generally we are NOT the targets. That said, we can get caught up in the middle of things that have nothing to do with us. It happens. That's when experience, common sense, and good peripheral vision are vital. In these areas, entire neighborhoods could be considered "unsafe", so the notion of an "unsafe scene" can be misleading. As long as you do not see an immediate threat to yourself or your patient, then there is no reason not to respond. We also developed good working relationships with the local cops. Because they worked in a high crime, violent area, they knew there was a better than average chance they may need our services so it was in their best interests to keep an eye on us. We did not cry wolf, so when we called them, we NEEDED them ASAP, and they knew it. Often times they would see us on a scene, pull over and stick around, just to make sure we were OK. I cannot tell you how much that helped our peace of mind.

My point is, in busy urban areas you will learn the job. You will see more in a week than many people get to experience in their entire careers. Is it for the faint of heart? Nope. You need self confidence, maybe a bit of bravado, and your patience will be tested on a regular basis. If you treat folks with respect, you generally will get that respect in return. If you work in an area on a regular basis, the neighborhood will get to know you, know what type of person you are, and know if you treat people right. That said, unfortunately you also cannot control what other crews do, or how they behave, so if you have a rouge crew who are acting like a'holes, you end up dealing with the fallout.

Here's a little tip that was shared with me years ago by a local gang banger- generally folks in the ghettos are HAPPY to see us and fire suppression. When we show up, we are trying to help someone. Unfortunately, law enforcement does not see that since more often than not, when the cops show up, someone is likely to lose their freedom, or the cops are looking to take away someone's source of "income". When we would arrive in the housing projects, the gang bangers who were lookouts for the buildings would actually announce our presence- meaning we were NOT the police, and to give us safe passage, hold the elevators, clear the hallways, etc. We would even occasionally have the thugs helping to carry equipment, or help restore calm in a chaotic situation. They knew we were there to do a job, not to mess with them or their "business".

Good luck- hope it helps.

As someone who spent years in the worst places in town(no, not Detroit) and running 25+ calls in 24 hours every day, I can attest to the potential danger. Had a few close calls, but generally we are NOT the targets. That said, we can get caught up in the middle of things that have nothing to do with us. It happens. That's when experience, common sense, and good peripheral vision are vital. In these areas, entire neighborhoods could be considered "unsafe", so the notion of an "unsafe scene" can be misleading. As long as you do not see an immediate threat to yourself or your patient, then there is no reason not to respond. We also developed good working relationships with the local cops. Because they worked in a high crime, violent area, they knew there was a better than average chance they may need our services so it was in their best interests to keep an eye on us. We did not cry wolf, so when we called them, we NEEDED them ASAP, and they knew it. Often times they would see us on a scene, pull over and stick around, just to make sure we were OK. I cannot tell you how much that helped our peace of mind.

My point is, in busy urban areas you will learn the job. You will see more in a week than many people get to experience in their entire careers. Is it for the faint of heart? Nope. You need self confidence, maybe a bit of bravado, and your patience will be tested on a regular basis. If you treat folks with respect, you generally will get that respect in return. If you work in an area on a regular basis, the neighborhood will get to know you, know what type of person you are, and know if you treat people right. That said, unfortunately you also cannot control what other crews do, or how they behave, so if you have a rouge crew who are acting like a'holes, you end up dealing with the fallout.

Here's a little tip that was shared with me years ago by a local gang banger- generally folks in the ghettos are HAPPY to see us and fire suppression. When we show up, we are trying to help someone. Unfortunately, law enforcement does not see that since more often than not, when the cops show up, someone is likely to lose their freedom, or the cops are looking to take away someone's source of "income". When we would arrive in the housing projects, the gang bangers who were lookouts for the buildings would actually announce our presence- meaning we were NOT the police, and to give us safe passage, hold the elevators, clear the hallways, etc. We would even occasionally have the thugs helping to carry equipment, or help restore calm in a chaotic situation. They knew we were there to do a job, not to mess with them or their "business".

Good luck- hope it helps.

As someone who spent years in the worst places in town(no, not Detroit) and running 25+ calls in 24 hours every day, I can attest to the potential danger. Had a few close calls, but generally we are NOT the targets. That said, we can get caught up in the middle of things that have nothing to do with us. It happens. That's when experience, common sense, and good peripheral vision are vital. In these areas, entire neighborhoods could be considered "unsafe", so the notion of an "unsafe scene" can be misleading. As long as you do not see an immediate threat to yourself or your patient, then there is no reason not to respond. We also developed good working relationships with the local cops. Because they worked in a high crime, violent area, they knew there was a better than average chance they may need our services so it was in their best interests to keep an eye on us. We did not cry wolf, so when we called them, we NEEDED them ASAP, and they knew it. Often times they would see us on a scene, pull over and stick around, just to make sure we were OK. I cannot tell you how much that helped our peace of mind.

My point is, in busy urban areas you will learn the job. You will see more in a week than many people get to experience in their entire careers. Is it for the faint of heart? Nope. You need self confidence, maybe a bit of bravado, and your patience will be tested on a regular basis. If you treat folks with respect, you generally will get that respect in return. If you work in an area on a regular basis, the neighborhood will get to know you, know what type of person you are, and know if you treat people right. That said, unfortunately you also cannot control what other crews do, or how they behave, so if you have a rouge crew who are acting like a'holes, you end up dealing with the fallout.

Here's a little tip that was shared with me years ago by a local gang banger- generally folks in the ghettos are HAPPY to see us and fire suppression. When we show up, we are trying to help someone. Unfortunately, law enforcement does not see that since more often than not, when the cops show up, someone is likely to lose their freedom, or the cops are looking to take away someone's source of "income". When we would arrive in the housing projects, the gang bangers who were lookouts for the buildings would actually announce our presence- meaning we were NOT the police, and to give us safe passage, hold the elevators, clear the hallways, etc. We would even occasionally have the thugs helping to carry equipment, or help restore calm in a chaotic situation. They knew we were there to do a job, not to mess with them or their "business".

Good luck- hope it helps.

As someone who spent years in the worst places in town(no, not Detroit) and running 25+ calls in 24 hours every day, I can attest to the potential danger. Had a few close calls, but generally we are NOT the targets. That said, we can get caught up in the middle of things that have nothing to do with us. It happens. That's when experience, common sense, and good peripheral vision are vital. In these areas, entire neighborhoods could be considered "unsafe", so the notion of an "unsafe scene" can be misleading. As long as you do not see an immediate threat to yourself or your patient, then there is no reason not to respond. We also developed good working relationships with the local cops. Because they worked in a high crime, violent area, they knew there was a better than average chance they may need our services so it was in their best interests to keep an eye on us. We did not cry wolf, so when we called them, we NEEDED them ASAP, and they knew it. Often times they would see us on a scene, pull over and stick around, just to make sure we were OK. I cannot tell you how much that helped our peace of mind.

My point is, in busy urban areas you will learn the job. You will see more in a week than many people get to experience in their entire careers. Is it for the faint of heart? Nope. You need self confidence, maybe a bit of bravado, and your patience will be tested on a regular basis. If you treat folks with respect, you generally will get that respect in return. If you work in an area on a regular basis, the neighborhood will get to know you, know what type of person you are, and know if you treat people right. That said, unfortunately you also cannot control what other crews do, or how they behave, so if you have a rouge crew who are acting like a'holes, you end up dealing with the fallout.

Here's a little tip that was shared with me years ago by a local gang banger- generally folks in the ghettos are HAPPY to see us and fire suppression. When we show up, we are trying to help someone. Unfortunately, law enforcement does not see that since more often than not, when the cops show up, someone is likely to lose their freedom, or the cops are looking to take away someone's source of "income". When we would arrive in the housing projects, the gang bangers who were lookouts for the buildings would actually announce our presence- meaning we were NOT the police, and to give us safe passage, hold the elevators, clear the hallways, etc. We would even occasionally have the thugs helping to carry equipment, or help restore calm in a chaotic situation. They knew we were there to do a job, not to mess with them or their "business".

Good luck- hope it helps.

As someone who spent years in the worst places in town(no, not Detroit) and running 25+ calls in 24 hours every day, I can attest to the potential danger. Had a few close calls, but generally we are NOT the targets. That said, we can get caught up in the middle of things that have nothing to do with us. It happens. That's when experience, common sense, and good peripheral vision are vital. In these areas, entire neighborhoods could be considered "unsafe", so the notion of an "unsafe scene" can be misleading. As long as you do not see an immediate threat to yourself or your patient, then there is no reason not to respond. We also developed good working relationships with the local cops. Because they worked in a high crime, violent area, they knew there was a better than average chance they may need our services so it was in their best interests to keep an eye on us. We did not cry wolf, so when we called them, we NEEDED them ASAP, and they knew it. Often times they would see us on a scene, pull over and stick around, just to make sure we were OK. I cannot tell you how much that helped our peace of mind.

My point is, in busy urban areas you will learn the job. You will see more in a week than many people get to experience in their entire careers. Is it for the faint of heart? Nope. You need self confidence, maybe a bit of bravado, and your patience will be tested on a regular basis. If you treat folks with respect, you generally will get that respect in return. If you work in an area on a regular basis, the neighborhood will get to know you, know what type of person you are, and know if you treat people right. That said, unfortunately you also cannot control what other crews do, or how they behave, so if you have a rouge crew who are acting like a'holes, you end up dealing with the fallout.

Here's a little tip that was shared with me years ago by a local gang banger- generally folks in the ghettos are HAPPY to see us and fire suppression. When we show up, we are trying to help someone. Unfortunately, law enforcement does not see that since more often than not, when the cops show up, someone is likely to lose their freedom, or the cops are looking to take away someone's source of "income". When we would arrive in the housing projects, the gang bangers who were lookouts for the buildings would actually announce our presence- meaning we were NOT the police, and to give us safe passage, hold the elevators, clear the hallways, etc. We would even occasionally have the thugs helping to carry equipment, or help restore calm in a chaotic situation. They knew we were there to do a job, not to mess with them or their "business".

Good luck- hope it helps.

As someone who spent years in the worst places in town(no, not Detroit) and running 25+ calls in 24 hours every day, I can attest to the potential danger. Had a few close calls, but generally we are NOT the targets. That said, we can get caught up in the middle of things that have nothing to do with us. It happens. That's when experience, common sense, and good peripheral vision are vital. In these areas, entire neighborhoods could be considered "unsafe", so the notion of an "unsafe scene" can be misleading. As long as you do not see an immediate threat to yourself or your patient, then there is no reason not to respond. We also developed good working relationships with the local cops. Because they worked in a high crime, violent area, they knew there was a better than average chance they may need our services so it was in their best interests to keep an eye on us. We did not cry wolf, so when we called them, we NEEDED them ASAP, and they knew it. Often times they would see us on a scene, pull over and stick around, just to make sure we were OK. I cannot tell you how much that helped our peace of mind.

My point is, in busy urban areas you will learn the job. You will see more in a week than many people get to experience in their entire careers. Is it for the faint of heart? Nope. You need self confidence, maybe a bit of bravado, and your patience will be tested on a regular basis. If you treat folks with respect, you generally will get that respect in return. If you work in an area on a regular basis, the neighborhood will get to know you, know what type of person you are, and know if you treat people right. That said, unfortunately you also cannot control what other crews do, or how they behave, so if you have a rouge crew who are acting like a'holes, you end up dealing with the fallout.

Here's a little tip that was shared with me years ago by a local gang banger- generally folks in the ghettos are HAPPY to see us and fire suppression. When we show up, we are trying to help someone. Unfortunately, law enforcement does not see that since more often than not, when the cops show up, someone is likely to lose their freedom, or the cops are looking to take away someone's source of "income". When we would arrive in the housing projects, the gang bangers who were lookouts for the buildings would actually announce our presence- meaning we were NOT the police, and to give us safe passage, hold the elevators, clear the hallways, etc. We would even occasionally have the thugs helping to carry equipment, or help restore calm in a chaotic situation. They knew we were there to do a job, not to mess with them or their "business".

Good luck- hope it helps.

As someone who spent years in the worst places in town(no, not Detroit) and running 25+ calls in 24 hours every day, I can attest to the potential danger. Had a few close calls, but generally we are NOT the targets. That said, we can get caught up in the middle of things that have nothing to do with us. It happens. That's when experience, common sense, and good peripheral vision are vital. In these areas, entire neighborhoods could be considered "unsafe", so the notion of an "unsafe scene" can be misleading. As long as you do not see an immediate threat to yourself or your patient, then there is no reason not to respond. We also developed good working relationships with the local cops. Because they worked in a high crime, violent area, they knew there was a better than average chance they may need our services so it was in their best interests to keep an eye on us. We did not cry wolf, so when we called them, we NEEDED them ASAP, and they knew it. Often times they would see us on a scene, pull over and stick around, just to make sure we were OK. I cannot tell you how much that helped our peace of mind.

My point is, in busy urban areas you will learn the job. You will see more in a week than many people get to experience in their entire careers. Is it for the faint of heart? Nope. You need self confidence, maybe a bit of bravado, and your patience will be tested on a regular basis. If you treat folks with respect, you generally will get that respect in return. If you work in an area on a regular basis, the neighborhood will get to know you, know what type of person you are, and know if you treat people right. That said, unfortunately you also cannot control what other crews do, or how they behave, so if you have a rouge crew who are acting like a'holes, you end up dealing with the fallout.

Here's a little tip that was shared with me years ago by a local gang banger- generally folks in the ghettos are HAPPY to see us and fire suppression. When we show up, we are trying to help someone. Unfortunately, law enforcement does not see that since more often than not, when the cops show up, someone is likely to lose their freedom, or the cops are looking to take away someone's source of "income". When we would arrive in the housing projects, the gang bangers who were lookouts for the buildings would actually announce our presence- meaning we were NOT the police, and to give us safe passage, hold the elevators, clear the hallways, etc. We would even occasionally have the thugs helping to carry equipment, or help restore calm in a chaotic situation. They knew we were there to do a job, not to mess with them or their "business".

Good luck- hope it helps.

I apologize folks...

Can a moderator please delete the extra posts? It seems my browser had a seizure...

Lone Star · September 19, 2011

You both have validated what I've been saying in your own ways....

CPhT by acknowledging how rough those areas are; Herbie by your advice.

The last tour of duty that my station (Station 16) was a 24-hour statation, we pulled a whopping 38 calls. Most were nothing more than IFT transports, but each time we were called, we had to deal with a PERSON. I get so peeved at people who run down the elderly, the homeless and those who are less fortunate.

Yes, I worked in less than 'ideal situations', and many 'unsavory areas' on a daily basis. I treated each patient with at least the respect due to any human being, and lo and behold, I rarely had any issues that involved law enforcement having to intervene.

Another factor in my favor is our uniforms didn't look anything like law enforcement; (different colors, no badges, etc).

Just because you're in a 'bad part of town' doesn't mean that your scene is guaranteed unsafe. Some of the nicest people have been in those areas of town.

With the time I've spent in EMS, I've seen too many providers dismiss people as inferior or insignificant, simply because the provider was in uniform or because the patient/family lived in 'that part of town'. It is this attitude that tends to make an already tense situation, (because of the fact that a family member is in need of EMS' services), much worse than it needs to be.

Another thing is to cultivate your relationship with law enforcement...don't bring them out for back-up simply based on your geographical location, or because of the chosen profession (or non-profession) of your patient.

As Herbie pointed out, even the 'gang-bangers' can provide more assistance than they're normally given credit for.

Maybe during my time in Metro Detroit, I was extremely lucky and didn't walk into 'bad scenes'; or maybe it was because of how I dealt with my patients/family, I can't say for sure. All I CAN say about it was the fact that a little respect goes a long way...

CPhT,

I'm sure your instructor could tell you tales that would keep you on the edge of your seat about his time in Detroit. I never worked for Taylor Ambulance. EMS is a major 'gossip mill', and according to 'Rumor Control', things for Taylor got REAL bad before and during the acquisition by Laidlaw. Ask your instructor about American Ambulance and their 'welded cots'....

Richard B the EMT · September 19, 2011

The bad thing of "The Bad Parts Of Town", is that the bad folks get all the press, and the nice folks get painted with the same brush as also being evil.

I worked the worst drug infested projects in New York City, and really met the nicest of people. Unfortunately, I also met some of the nastiest.

If using stairwells, I learned to yell, "EMS in the stairwell! If doing something you shouldn't, better stop for a bit!" The "Bangers" used to comment that I was crazy, but they seemed to like me for doing that.

Lone Star · September 21, 2011

Definately saves on the 'surprize factor'!

When you come around the corner unannounced and wearing a badge...in a uniform that looks a LOT like law enforcement, you tend to get an unwanted reception....

HERBIE1 · September 21, 2011

Excellent point about the stairwells, Richard. We did the same thing- especially since most of these buildings had no lighting in the stairs, we used our maglites- just like the police, and the last thing you wanted to do is surprise someone doing something they were not supposed to be doing.

The biggest problem- the stench and the filth. A mix of old booze, urine, garbage, and gawd knows what else. You NEVER wanted to touch a wall, or slip where you might fall and touch the unknown substances on the stairs, not to mention you can only hold your breath for so long... LOL

CPhT · September 21, 2011

I grew up at Fenkell and Lahser... I know the area a bit too well. Everyone who knew me when I was living in the area, hoodlum, "straight up", or otherwise, at least acknowledged that we were all in the same situation. Mutual respect, if you know what I'm saying. Granted, that was 15-20 years ago, and you probably wouldn't know that unless I mentioned it. Usually the mention of my old address raises eyebrows with people who are familiar with the area.

In any case, thanks for the advice and the knowledge. That's a really good idea about distinguishing ourselves as EMT, NOT police. I'd rather not get shot/stabbed/punched by some crackhead who sees a badge and freaks out. On the flip side, I'll really take the respect and treatment aspect to heart. People don't live in the ghetto for it's appeal and resale value, but they still need to be treated with the same level of respect and dignity as if we were pulling a CEO out of his high rise office.

Thanks!

Richard B the EMT · September 21, 2011

Amen!

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