What Did I Do Wrong ?

[island emt]

Whhhhhooooaaaaa, get off your high horse. We have several volunteers in the area that have no EMS training, and it is not rocket science to put on a c-collar and hold a head up straight, would you prefer for his neck to be flopping around for another 10 minutes ? And I have reviewed my EMT book which clearly states that it is legal to assist a patient in taking their medication. The difference between me and some of you: I care enough to respond on my time off to people in need, according to another thread, most of you wouldn't even consider stopping on the side of the road to help someone.

Where to start:

Your sign in name tells an awful lot about you!

Are you a licensed first responder?

What agency do you work for?

What level of training do you have?

Do you have a medical director or protocols that you operate under?

First off depending on what state you reside in , you could be charged with impersonating an emergency provider which is a class C crime.

Second: you self dispatched yourself to an emergency scene" FREELANCING is not acceptable behavior!

Third you placed a cervical immobilization device on the pt. Did you do a proper spinal assessment before & after doing so? Do you even know how to do a proper spinal assessment?

It involves a lot more than just wrapping a device around the pt's neck.

fourth: You mention the pt bent the steering wheel and is suffering from chest trauma , Yet you administered a prescription medication that was probably the worst thing you could do for this pt. Do you even have a clue what the pharmacological properties of the drug are? Giving a prescription med without a license is not a good way to stay out of trouble.

This is most likely the reason the assigned EMS crew asked what the hell you were doing.

What if your mistaken need for an adrenaline rush caused the death of the Patient?

Do you think you can afford the civil and criminal charges and lawsuits to be filed against your unwarranted actions..???

Hopefully you will take time to think very carefully and read what the folks here are telling you.

There are laws and regulations to be followed in EMS. to do otherwise will only get your ass in a sling, or buy you time in jail.

If you did this in my area ,you would have been placed in handcuffs and taken to jail to explain your actions to the judge .

Don't assume that because" you snuck away from the scene" you will not hear further about this from someone with a badge. The possibility of a formal complaint being filed by the Licensed providers on scene is high. The state will investigate and track you down.

Edited October 4, 2011 by island emt

[Chief1C]

Someone get me a nitro, I'm having stress pain.

[Just Plain Ruff]

My panties are not in a wad, I asked a simple question and got pounced on from every angle. As far as judging you, I did not, I read your own words in this thread : http://www.emtcity.c...__fromsearch__1

where many of you stated you would just drive on by an accident, although some of you said you would call 911 for them, big whhhhhooooppp, thanks a pants load for interupting your day. If that upsets you then I am sorry, but those were your words, not mine.

You do not have to be an EMTB, I , or P to assist a patient in taking their own medication, any citizen can do that, there is no law against it. So if a kid was having a severe asthma attack and asked me to get his inhaler out of his book-bag, you are saying I should wait until an EMT arrives ? Please !!!!!

And why is today not the day for me to be on here ? Are new people not allowed on Mondays ?

And yes your panties are in a wad getting so angry over our telling you why what you did was a bad thing. Did you even read and understand why I don't stop? I defined my reasoning why in my first post in the thread you referenced.

Have you not heard a word we've said. Since I'm impressed that you haven't ran away.

Can you tell me why it was a BAD idea to give the guy a nitroglycerin, oh wait, you gave him two? Do you have any idea what nitro does to a patient? Can you tell me why you might not want to give that particular medication to a patient with chest trauma. If you cannot tell me why it's a bad idea why you did that then we have nothing more to talk about.

And yes, I don't stop any more. But if you read my response you will know why I don't. But I'm not arguing this with you, what I am trying to do is to get you to understand why what you did was a stupid thing to do. I know you were only trying to help, Kudos for willing but the dangers of giving a person any medication when you don't truly know what might happen when you give a medication that's the real danger here.

And you asked for criticism, so why are you getting so bent out of shape when we criticise you?

And by the way, I've been nice to you offering you suggestions on how to do things differently yet those efforts go unthanked.

So take a step back, step away from the Kool-aid and think of it this as a learning experience but if you continue to focus on the things that we said in a past thread about not stopping and focusing on how great a person you are for not only self dispatching yourself to a call, arriving at that call, assessing a patient(you don't have that training do you), giving the patient a medication that could potentially kill your patient in a trauma situation, and then scurrying away like a feral cat when the crew asked you to stick around. You obviously knew that something you did was amiss, hence the EMS Crew wanting to talk to you and now this post that you put out which clearly states in your title "What did I do wrong" that says to me that you knew you did something wrong.

So please answer my question as well as Wendy's "Why is giving 2 nitro's to a patient with chest trauma a bad idea?"

Edited October 4, 2011 by Ruffems

[DwayneEMTP]

Brother, let me break this down for you, and I'm not being shitty, as it can be hard to understand where people are coming from if you don't live/work in this field.

You believe that you helped, that you showed that you care by leaving your home and showing up. Many others do the same, and like you, most often they harm people with their ignorance. Now, don't confuse the words ignorant and stupid. You can fix ignorance...

The bent steering wheel is a huge deal to most of us here as it tells us that the pt, in one way or another, transferred a ton of energy from his body to the stearing wheel, and that almost never comes without significant injury.

Almost every injury that can happen from that mechanism is going to be life threatening, and most of them will cause the medics to have a battle to control and maintain the patients perfusion. (blood pressure) Now the body will fight to keep that blood pressure up, to keep the organs fed. But by giving him the Nitro you gave him a medicine chemically designed to fight against the body's efforts to save itself.

You claimed that his 'vitals were fine' but not a single paramedic in this conversation, no matter how many years they've been practicing would make that statement on this patient without taking them again and again over a period of time.

If this patient had any of the injuries common with this type of accident there is a very good chance that you killed him with your treatment. It is likely a good thing that you ran away, as there is also a good chance that you would be in jail now if you hadn't.

It looks, from the outside looking in, like people are doing a bunch of mindless bullshit when you watch them on scene. But most of the important stuff is happening in their heads, not in their hands.

You hurt a man. You claim you wanted to help, but all here are telling you that you almost certainly harmed him instead, yet your response remains, "Well at least I did something!"

This is a professional forum full of people that have payed their dues for the right to go behind the yellow tape. Most have payed with years of their lives. They are intelligent, and have the ability to help people.

You should really, really not kid yourself into believing that just by running to an accident and being willing to get bloody makes you a good guy. As in this case, it doesn't.

Stop pretending that you want to help by buying bandages and hanging out with the local volly squad and actually get committed to doing some good and get the education necessary to do so.

In this case, this man would have been better off if you had never shown up. He would have been healthier and safer if he has sat there alone until professional responders showed up. That's not your fault, because you didn't know better. But now you do.

So what are you going to do? Continue to cry about it, or get the education to Do good, instead of Pretending to do good?

Not running away, and continuing to participate in the forums is a good start. If you have the balls for it.

Dwayne

[Just Plain Ruff]

Dwayne, well put but please don't give him the answer to the question I and WEndy asked him. I want him to truly understand what Nitro does to the body.

I'm hoping as you are hoping that he doesnt' run away like he did on the call. I want him to understand that we are not busting his chops just to bust them, I want him to understand like you have said that his giving this man nitro may have just killed the patient and how much trouble he could be in.

I would hate for him to get arrested or sued without his knowing what he did and the ramifications of that said action.

[NYCEMS]

Go easy on me, I am just 18 and about to start my EMT-B class, but I have had EMS in my blood for as long as I can remember. I have been reading my text-books (and paramedic book) and studying as much as I can before class begins. I purchased a scanner and listen to our local calls as much as possible. I have also purchased lots of medical supplies for my car. So the other night, I heard on the scanner that there was a wreck with entrapment just about a mile from my house. I was first on the scene and found a 50 year old male who hit a telephone pole and bent the steering wheel. He was compaining of chest pain and difficulty breathing, his vital signs were stable. I put on a C-Collar and gave the patient two of the Nitro pills that was in his pocket (he asked me to). I held C-Spine until the Fire guys arrived, and then gave report. They looked at me like I lost my mind ???????? Then told me they wanted to talk with me when the call was over. I snuck away, but I can not figure out what I did wrong ? Can you help me figure it out ?

Wow. I think they were rather hard on you. Your hearts in the right place and you just wanted some guidence. Your young, your hearts racing and you just want to help others. Thats where we all start when we enter this field. Rather then going over your do's and don'ts I recommend you move on from first responder and take an EMT course. This way you'll have all the answers your looking for and be more prepared. I know the scanner thing is very exciting but believe me you need to pace yourself and not run out to everything you here. Your only 1 person and I don't want you to possibly get into something that you can get hurt. I was lucky to have a couple of senior guys on the job help me out when I first began and I've always made it a point to do the same for others. So keep the faith, stay cool and educate yourself, not just by books but with expirenced partners. Good Luck and if I can help let me know.

[Just Plain Ruff]

Wow. I think they were rather hard on you. Your hearts in the right place and you just wanted some guidence. Your young, your hearts racing and you just want to help others. Thats where we all start when we enter this field. Rather then going over your do's and don'ts I recommend you move on from first responder and take an EMT course. This way you'll have all the answers your looking for and be more prepared. I know the scanner thing is very exciting but believe me you need to pace yourself and not run out to everything you here. Your only 1 person and I don't want you to possibly get into something that you can get hurt. I was lucky to have a couple of senior guys on the job help me out when I first began and I've always made it a point to do the same for others. So keep the faith, stay cool and educate yourself, not just by books but with expirenced partners. Good Luck and if I can help let me know.

Actually the reason why we were hard on him is two fold.

he asked for criticism and we gave it.

He also gave 2 nitroglycerins to a trauma patient that if he was an EMT or even a first responder he would not have done that.

He opened himself up by putting himself on a pedestal of I've read the books and I know what to do. in Fact, he did not know what to do.

Giving the nitro's to the chest trauma patient may have cost that patient his life. So tell me why you think we were too hard on him?

I too believe that he's got some good years ahead of him with the enthusiasm that he shows but this also proves that a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous if not nearly fatal thing.

That's why we got on him, not because his heart was in the right place!.

Let me ask this question, if this was your father and he hit the tree, bent the steering wheel and a person came up who has read the emt books and has all that equipment in his car. He comes to your fathers aid and gives him two nitros when he has chest trauma, your father suffers an adverse effect from the giving of 2 nitros and either passes away or has lasting disability, would you just chalk his error to just being gung ho? Would you say "your heart was in the right place" or what would you say to this person?

[ERDoc]

I think we can end the discussion. It seems we have chased him away.

[HERBIE1]

Wow. I think they were rather hard on you. Your hearts in the right place and you just wanted some guidence. Your young, your hearts racing and you just want to help others. Thats where we all start when we enter this field. Rather then going over your do's and don'ts I recommend you move on from first responder and take an EMT course. This way you'll have all the answers your looking for and be more prepared. I know the scanner thing is very exciting but believe me you need to pace yourself and not run out to everything you here. Your only 1 person and I don't want you to possibly get into something that you can get hurt. I was lucky to have a couple of senior guys on the job help me out when I first began and I've always made it a point to do the same for others. So keep the faith, stay cool and educate yourself, not just by books but with expirenced partners. Good Luck and if I can help let me know.

The thing that got to me was the arrogance of this kid. Yes, he was acting like a "typical" 18 year old- they have all the answers and nobody can tell them anything. Problem is, in this case his attitude could get himself or someone else injured or even killed- not to mention his ass thrown in jail. His intentions are irrelevant. There was no contrition, no mea culpa on his part. Yes, he did ask what he did wrong, but apparently it was supposed to be a rhetorical question since he really did not like the answers he received. Hopefully this WAS a learning experience, and he moves on to get proper training and guidance.

Personal opinion- I do not think this guy has the right mindset for this job, and certainly not the maturity- at least not yet. Hopefully he'll channel his energies properly and prove me wrong.

[DFIB]

I have to concur with pretty much everyone that has posted a response. And do not want to repeat all of it.

You seem to allude that some of us are uncaring because we make a reasoned decision to stop or not stop at the scene of an accident. This is not true. Any real EMS person knows the limitations of stopping without having the proper gear to work with. We also understand that depending on the area the patient is much better off waiting the extra minute or two for the ambulance. The truth is that on your own you really can’t help that much.

Providing your own equipment is not in your best interest either. You would have to work three jobs to provide your own equipment to patients on the road.

The most important thing you can learn from this thread is that if you REALLY have EMS in your blood you will NEVER do anything like this again. If you are found guilty of all of the things you committed the possibility of ever being a practicing EMS provider are very, very slim.

You need to understand that the FF “Looked at you like you were crazy” and left you to deal with later because they had to go see if THEIR patient was dying because of your actions.

You are young, so take the time to go to school, train properly and THEN you can help many more.