DFIB Posted October 27, 2011 Posted October 27, 2011 (edited) I don't think you can say there has ever been an atheist society. There may have been atheists in every society but all societies have had some religious figure(s) that they worshiped. The Greeks and Romans had their gods. We call it mythology, but how is it any more or less real than Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Paganism, etc? Since we are talking about Christ being sacrificed for our sins, why did it have to happen? If God is the one that decides what is sin and sets the rules, shouldn't he be able to say, "I absolve all of your sins, no need to send someone to die for them. I'm God and I can do that." I think it has to do with Justice and mercy and a substitutionary sacrifice. Justice demands a price be paid as all are responsible for their own actions. Mercy provides a means that removes the penalty in exchange for faith. If God is just he has to repay each according to their deeds. If he is merciful he provides a substitute that is qualified (perfect and sinless) to pay the price for the offender. The crucial point is any biblical argument is whether the participants believe in the authority of the writings. In this case the Bible . Well now that depends on the belief you follow. If your following the catholic faith and believe in the trinity ( father son and holy ghost being one in the same being) technically God sacrificed himself, there by committing ritualistic suicide. Yet Suicide is a mortal sin that can not be forgiven. This is a scenario i posed to my pastor during my confirmation interview. He had no response for me on this nor a couple other questions i had ... I didn't get confirmed... Wouldn't you think it is quite a stretch to say showing passiveness and love to the Roman torture and murder machine is suicide? Doesn't seem like your priest was very sharp. Edited to insert (perfect and sinless) Everyone was all in an uproar last week when it was discovered that Iran had created an assasination plot to kill some of their "perceived enemies" on foreign soil. This week we assasinate Kadafi (our enemy) on foreign soil, and we are celebrating. You can argue that no US person actually pulled the trigger, but it was our drones and intel that located him, the same as it was not going to be an Iranian solder that pulled the trigger or set off the bombs. I wonder, WWJD ? Are you serious? I am sure the US gave orders for that guy to sodomize Kadafi with a knofe, or shoot him in the head after torturing him in the street. NATO helped find a vicious dictator so he could be removed from power. The psychos on the street killed him. The difference is vast. Is the US different from Iran? You should know better than anyone. In Iran homosexuality is a crime punishable by incarceration, torture and death. Heck yea we are better. Your freedom of sexual preference proves it. Edited October 27, 2011 by DFIB
HERBIE1 Posted October 27, 2011 Posted October 27, 2011 I guess we need to operate under the assumption that some things are considered almost universally despicable. Yes, there will ALWAYS be someone who justifies things most folks consider non starters, yet they always seem to have a few folks that agree with them- regardless of how disgusting their actions may be. Think David Koresh and his pedophilia. We also need to be careful of how we view alleged allies of madmen like Khadafi. Many times we make and justify "arrangements" with vile people in order to fulfill a larger cause. Public support may actually mask private condemnation. Religion is a tough subject.
DFIB Posted October 27, 2011 Posted October 27, 2011 (edited) I guess we need to operate under the assumption that some things are considered almost universally despicable. Yes, there will ALWAYS be someone who justifies things most folks consider non starters, yet they always seem to have a few folks that agree with them- regardless of how disgusting their actions may be. Think David Koresh and his pedophilia. We also need to be careful of how we view alleged allies of madmen like Khadafi. Many times we make and justify "arrangements" with vile people in order to fulfill a larger cause. Public support may actually mask private condemnation. Religion is a tough subject. No Kidding! Many of our most dedicated and violent enemies at one point were our allies. Saddling with bad people almost always will end bad. In religion there is no middle ground which makes it a very tough subject. By nature any religious discussion that ends in agreement demands that one party concede his/her views. Most end the way they started, with no change in the opinion of either party. Wasn’t this thread about Iran? Edited October 27, 2011 by DFIB
HERBIE1 Posted October 27, 2011 Posted October 27, 2011 No Kidding! Many of our most dedicated and violent enemies at one point were our allies. Saddling with bad people almost always will end bad. In religion there is no middle ground which makes it a very tough subject. By nature any religious discussion that ends in agreement demands that one party concede his/her views. Most end the way they started, with no change in the opinion of either party. Wasn’t this thread about Iran? In places like Iran, religion is an integral part of their daily lives, and in some places, it dictates everything you do. Differences among religious sects were at the heart of Iraq's trouble under Sadam Hussein. Think of all the mass graves that are found after a dictator is either killed or forced out- all in the name of some flavor of God.
DFIB Posted October 27, 2011 Posted October 27, 2011 In places like Iran, religion is an integral part of their daily lives, and in some places, it dictates everything you do. Differences among religious sects were at the heart of Iraq's trouble under Sadam Hussein. Think of all the mass graves that are found after a dictator is either killed or forced out- all in the name of some flavor of God. Have you seen the video where they pull Kaddafi from the drain? Everybody is dancing around, giving him a beating while one guy sodomized him with what looks like a knife, all the time crying out Allāh Akbar. Praise God we are torturing and sodomizing a man in the street. I guess I will never understand. http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/middle-east/111024/gaddafi-sodomized-video-gaddafi-sodomy?page=1/
HellsBells Posted October 27, 2011 Posted October 27, 2011 (edited) Since there is some dispute over who authorized the killing of Kadafi. Lets instead compare it to the killing of Bin Laden, who was definatively killed by US forces. The US strike on Bin Laden was a surgical strike, they had one specific target, made sure he was isolated, took him out at a specific place and time to prevent collateral damage. The Iran plan involved hiring Mexican drug dealing thugs, targeting a low level Saudi diplomat at a public restaurant with no concern over civilian deaths, all for fairly dubious results. So for one, the US is at least superior and distinct in its tactics. As for the moral debate, it gets a little more sticky. It can obviously be considered amoral to conduct clandestine operations on foriegn soil that would be considered criminal by domestic law. Additionally, its always risky to take out a foriegn dictator and create a power vaccum that may be filled by someone or something worse. On the other hand, is it wrong to finish a mad dog ruler and prevent years, decades of suffering at their hands? At the risk of using a cliched example, if you could have taken out Hitler before his rise to power, would you? Could that be considered the moral, just decision? Edited October 27, 2011 by HellsBells
DFIB Posted October 27, 2011 Posted October 27, 2011 Since there is some dispute over who authorized the killing of Kadafi. Lets instead compare it to the killing of Bin Laden, who was definatively killed by US forces. The US strike on Bin Laden was a surgical strike, they had one specific target, made sure he was isolated, took him out at a specific place and time to prevent collateral damage. The Iran plan involved hiring Mexican drug dealing thugs, targeting a low level Saudi diplomat at a public restaurant with no concern over civilian deaths, all for fairly dubious results. So for one, the US is at least superior and distinct in its tactics. We are so much better when the military handles it and just lets everyone else know when it is go time. No chance for Washington to screw it up. There seems to be some speculation as to wither the Iran plot was even the real deal of just a ploy to pull the heat away from the botched Fast and Furious. Darn conspiracy theorist ... ...
Richard B the EMT Posted October 27, 2011 Posted October 27, 2011 No Kidding! Many of our most dedicated and violent enemies at one point were our allies. Saddling with bad people almost always will end bad. Wasn’t this thread about Iran? Anyone remember our former enemies, the Germans and the Japanese? Economically, now, I think they are winning (disclosure: I own and drive a Nissan Quest). Perhaps a bit unrelated, we originally developed the first Atomic Bomb so that we'd have it before Hitler. As it turned out, his researchers and scientists were a long way behind ours, plus, Allied military and partisans sank the ferry carrying Hitler's supply of "Heavy Water", stalling development of a German "A Bomb" even further. Uh, YES, we have strayed a bit away from Iran in this string.
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