Help me settle a debate

[romneyfor2012]

So the next obvious question to me is HOW long is too long to "Stage" and wait on PD, for a non-violent call ? I realize in the big city, PD might be pretty close by, but in many rural areas it may take PD 15-30 minutes to respond. Your patient could be dead by then, and no I am not talking about a known hazardous house, lets just say it is a shady neighborhood as suggested here, with no known violence.

[DwayneEMTP]

Great question, but again, to many variables to really be able to say...

Maybe be more specific and build the conflicting interests?

Dwayne

[systemet]

edit

Edited November 20, 2011 by systemet

[thrutheashes]

Seeing as I have found myself in a similiar situation lately, I feel I have something to add here. As the op presents, I would likely stage myself, however there is a multitude of information missing.

MY partners and I have always run by the two person rule, which is we either both agree to go into a scene, or we don't go in. If we are told to stage, we stage for police. No questions. Otherwise it is our discretion. We read the scene the best we can, make our decisions accordingly, and if we have any "bad feelings" we stay out. I know not everyone will agree with this line of thinking. But that's ok. We rely on our instincts and try not to do something stupid, while helping someone in need.

[systemet]

So the next obvious question to me is HOW long is too long to "Stage" and wait on PD, for a non-violent call ?

Ideally, once you've identified the need to stage, you're staging until the cops clear the scene, no matter how long this takes.

I realize in the big city, PD might be pretty close by, but in many rural areas it may take PD 15-30 minutes to respond.

And this isn't unique to the rural environment. Cops in the city get busy. A call for PD to clear the scene on an OD might wait some time. I've easily staged 30 mins or more on some of these calls in the city.

Even when there is actual violence taking place, the cops often do their own version of staging, gathering 3 or 4 cruisers in a parking lot a few minutes from the event and then go in en masse. Sometimes it's safer for them to wait until they can have 3 or 4 sets of eyes instead of trying to be Rambo. Having parked next to them, I can confirm that this takes some time. Plus, once they do go in, calling back and clearing in EMS is often a relatively low priority.

Your patient could be dead by then, and no I am not talking about a known hazardous house, lets just say it is a shady neighborhood as suggested here, with no known violence.

They could be, but it's probably not that likely. You're presenting the situation here where there's no indication of violence, and the house is in a "shady" area, but not known to be a violent location. It makes me wonder why you'd be staging here, in this specific situation.

Regardless, I think that as long as you're not staging as an attempt to avoid doing work, then it's ok. If the PD are rocking and can't get bodies on scene quickly enough, then that's not your fault.

-------------------------

I will say that these situations can get very complicated very fast. For example, I once worked in a rural community, where there were a lot of drugs, violence and social problems. Often our nearest police were as much as 45 minutes away, and often they were busy. So we'd be placed in a situation where we'd be 15 minutes away from a violent call, and we'd be looking at waiting up to an hour for PD. Add in that we lack radio or cellphone coverage for about half our service area, and you start to have a problem really fast.

You end up with:

(1) Stage at the station, drink a cup of coffee, and hope the patient doesn't come to you, because they probably won't be happy.

(2) Go drive the ambulance down a dark road, and park there until the cops call that it's clear.

(3) Go do the call.

And options (1) and (2) come with the added risk that the patient's family and friends may come find you in the days or weeks following.

This was a far from ideal situation, where we ended up often driving by the call, refusing to enter the residence, but telling bystanders to drag the patient out. Then we'd drive a distance away, park, and start assessing the patient. I can't recommend this as a best (or even remotely safe) practice, and we had some dangerous situations occur. But I understand that sometimes there are no good answers.

Similar issues occur in urban environments too. What happens if your co-responding fire truck decides to ignore the staging on a shooting call, because they've just been watching Ladder 49, gets on scene, declares it safe and now has two victims needing transport. Do you respond?

Or if management decides that a private company providing unarmed and poorly-trained security guards has the authority to declare a scene safe.

Or dispatch is trying to encourage you to go in because they have an agitated caller on the line.

Or you have a supervisor who decided that staging didn't apply to them, and now they want help.

There's a lot of shades of grey, and very few clear answers. But I do think that we should encourage each other to voice our concerns, and when anyone wants to stage, that should be accepted and supported, much as Dwayne and Happiness have said.

[romneyfor2012]

OK, lets test some scenarios; for every one, your partner asks for PD, and dispatch tells you that due to heavy demand, there are currently no police officers available for at least 20-30 minutes:

1. Person down in the yard, unknown age or cause, in a middle class subdivision.

2. Injured in a fight at a Middle School.

3. Female overdose, unconscious, in the hood

4. Unconscious stripper in the dressing room of strip club (known for drugs and prostitution)

How long do you wait, the full 30 minutes ? What if you are caught on camera "sitting" at the business around the corner, and the patient dies. Does having a truck full of hose monkeys behind your rig change your mind ?

[systemet]

OK, lets test some scenarios; for every one, your partner asks for PD, and dispatch tells you that due to heavy demand, there are currently no police officers available for at least 20-30 minutes:

1. Person down in the yard, unknown age or cause, in a middle class subdivision.

2. Injured in a fight at a Middle School.

3. Female overdose, unconscious, in the hood

4. Unconscious stripper in the dressing room of strip club (known for drugs and prostitution)

How long do you wait, the full 30 minutes ? What if you are caught on camera "sitting" at the business around the corner, and the patient dies. Does having a truck full of hose monkeys behind your rig change your mind ?

Honestly, if my partner wants to stage on any of these events, we wait. I might ask them why, as none of those four situations, as given, indicate a need to stage for me. There's a possibility for (2) if the situation isn't under control per staff at the school. But unless there's extra information suggesting trouble, I wouldn't automatically stage in any of those situations - especially not (4)!.

The presence of the FD is a non-issue. It becomes a problem if they decide to charge in, and declare the scene safe, especially if it's a shooting / domestic / scene with high potential for resumption of violence.

If I'm filmed by a news camera, fine. I'm not a cop, I'm not equipped or trained to deal with violent situations, and I'm following a departmental policy for staging, and they should be out defending it, as should my union and my coworkers. If there's a delayed police response, this is an issue that PD and council have to take responsibility for.

This sort of scenario has happened in most major cities, and staging policies have survived it. We're not law enforcement.

[Siffaliss]

Ideally, once you've identified the need to stage, you're staging until the cops clear the scene, no matter how long this takes.

And this isn't unique to the rural environment. Cops in the city get busy. A call for PD to clear the scene on an OD might wait some time. I've easily staged 30 mins or more on some of these calls in the city.

Even when there is actual violence taking place, the cops often do their own version of staging, gathering 3 or 4 cruisers in a parking lot a few minutes from the event and then go in en masse. Sometimes it's safer for them to wait until they can have 3 or 4 sets of eyes instead of trying to be Rambo. Having parked next to them, I can confirm that this takes some time. Plus, once they do go in, calling back and clearing in EMS is often a relatively low priority.

Yup, yup and yup.

This was a far from ideal situation, where we ended up often driving by the call, refusing to enter the residence, but telling bystanders to drag the patient out. Then we'd drive a distance away, park, and start assessing the patient. I can't recommend this as a best (or even remotely safe) practice, and we had some dangerous situations occur. But I understand that sometimes there are no good answers.

Absolutely.

Similar issues occur in urban environments too. What happens if your co-responding fire truck decides to ignore the staging on a shooting call, because they've just been watching Ladder 49, gets on scene, declares it safe and now has two victims needing transport. Do you respond?

Nope. The pump should have stayed back. They probably know who survives at the end of Ladder 49, they should know better.

Or dispatch is trying to encourage you to go in because they have an agitated caller on the line.

More reason to hang back.

Or you have a supervisor who decided that staging didn't apply to them, and now they want help.

They shouldn't be supervising.

There's a lot of shades of grey, and very few clear answers. But I do think that we should encourage each other to voice our concerns, and when anyone wants to stage, that should be accepted and supported, much as Dwayne and Happiness have said.

Agreed.

OK, lets test some scenarios; for every one, your partner asks for PD, and dispatch tells you that due to heavy demand, there are currently no police officers available for at least 20-30 minutes:

1. Person down in the yard, unknown age or cause, in a middle class subdivision.

We'd probably go into the yard, regardless of class unless there was suspicious dispatch info.

2. Injured in a fight at a Middle School.

Where is the patient and where are the assailants?

3. Female overdose, unconscious, in the hood

Who called it in? Who's on scene? What's the history on the address, hood or not?

4. Unconscious stripper in the dressing room of strip club (known for drugs and prostitution)

Again, further dispatch info? Is there any indication of trauma, and/or that the crew should stage?

How long do you wait, the full 30 minutes ? What if you are caught on camera "sitting" at the business around the corner, and the patient dies. Does having a truck full of hose monkeys behind your rig change your mind ?

No. They have hoses, not guns. I wouldn't ask that they endanger themselves.

Honestly, if my partner wants to stage on any of these events, we wait. I might ask them why, as none of those four situations, as given, indicate a need to stage for me. There's a possibility for (2) if the situation isn't under control per staff at the school. But unless there's extra information suggesting trouble, I wouldn't automatically stage in any of those situations - especially not (4)!.

There are further questions to ask of dispatch I think.

The presence of the FD is a non-issue. It becomes a problem if they decide to charge in, and declare the scene safe, especially if it's a shooting / domestic / scene with high potential for resumption of violence.

Yup.

If I'm filmed by a news camera, fine. I'm not a cop, I'm not equipped or trained to deal with violent situations, and I'm following a departmental policy for staging, and they should be out defending it, as should my union and my coworkers. If there's a delayed police response, this is an issue that PD and council have to take responsibility for.

This sort of scenario has happened in most major cities, and staging policies have survived it. We're not law enforcement.

Everyone lately is overworked, understaffed and probably underpaid as well.

[mobey]

OK, lets test some scenarios; for every one, your partner asks for PD, and dispatch tells you that due to heavy demand, there are currently no police officers available for at least 20-30 minutes:

1. Person down in the yard, unknown age or cause, in a middle class subdivision.

2. Injured in a fight at a Middle School.

3. Female overdose, unconscious, in the hood

4. Unconscious stripper in the dressing room of strip club (known for drugs and prostitution)

My answer too all these is, If there is suspicious circumstances, weapons present, or assailants present I will stage.

How long do you wait, the full 30 minutes ?

If that is what it takes

What if you are caught on camera "sitting" at the business around the corner, and the patient dies.

Sounds like a good case for the police to argue for more officers on the road. I personally would welcome a camera, I am doing my job by ensuring scene safety, they can watch all they like

Does having a truck full of hose monkeys behind your rig change your mind ?

If they want to go busting into the scene and report back thier findings, that is fine..... I would never encourage them to do so. But NO... I would not go into a unsafe scene myself just because fire is with me.

[DFIB]

Unconscious stripper?!? Where?