chbare Posted December 5, 2011 Posted December 5, 2011 Solid Dwayne: I agree on your point of view. It seems we as humans experience a special type of delight when we can crush a person's spirit. I see religious zealots and hard core atheists try to do this all the time. Ruff: At the end of the day, any faith based conclusion you make is still one based on, well...faith. You are ultimately trying to define things that are not defined. Personally, I am am good with whatever conclusion you reach so long as you don't berate me with your beliefs. Of course, the same should also be true for me. Herbie: It is quite possible. At a certain point, I think many people at least come to a realisation that the concept of an interventional, divine mechanism does not really fit into what we know of the physical world. This does not mean I lack faith per se however. 2
HERBIE1 Posted December 5, 2011 Posted December 5, 2011 So are you saying that the less educated the more profession of faith or vice versa? I think you are partly true if you are positing that it's the former rather than the latter. You confused me here. Yes- the less educated, the more likely someone is to have a very high degree of faith. I would be interested to find out about religious scholars- ie in a university setting, not in the clergy. If someone is an expert on religion, what degree of faith would they have? Solid Dwayne: I agree on your point of view. It seems we as humans experience a special type of delight when we can crush a person's spirit. I see religious zealots and hard core atheists try to do this all the time. Ruff: At the end of the day, any faith based conclusion you make is still one based on, well...faith. You are ultimately trying to define things that are not defined. Personally, I am am good with whatever conclusion you reach so long as you don't berate me with your beliefs. Of course, the same should also be true for me. Herbie: It is quite possible. At a certain point, I think many people at least come to a realisation that the concept of an interventional, divine mechanism does not really fit into what we know of the physical world. This does not mean I lack faith per se however. I recall reading this somewhere- it's not just something I pulled out of my arse. I think you are right- the more education you have, the harder it becomes to reconcile an unwavering, all encompassing faith with what you learn in school. Add an interesting twist- those who attend universities and colleges that are affiliated with a religious order. I actually teach part time at one, and religion is a required class for all undergrads- regardless of your field of study. I see nothing contradictory about believing in a God and being highly educated- it's just I think we become more skeptical as we amass more knowledge, and education is all about learning how to learn, which means there rarely can be absolutes in anything, right?
paramedicmike Posted December 6, 2011 Posted December 6, 2011 You confused me here. Yes- the less educated, the more likely someone is to have a very high degree of faith. I would be interested to find out about religious scholars- ie in a university setting, not in the clergy. If someone is an expert on religion, what degree of faith would they have? Part of the core curriculum at two of the colleges/universities I attended mandated a series of theology classes. The classes were taught by a mix of professors. Some were catholic priests. Some were nuns. Some were civilian. This is a totally unscientific observation with a ridiculously small sample size, but every civilian theology professor I had was a professed atheist. Each one of them stated that their atheism grew out of the education they received in their pursuit of their PhD in theology. This, of course, drove the priests/nuns out of their mind.
HERBIE1 Posted December 6, 2011 Posted December 6, 2011 Part of the core curriculum at two of the colleges/universities I attended mandated a series of theology classes. The classes were taught by a mix of professors. Some were catholic priests. Some were nuns. Some were civilian. This is a totally unscientific observation with a ridiculously small sample size, but every civilian theology professor I had was a professed atheist. Each one of them stated that their atheism grew out of the education they received in their pursuit of their PhD in theology. This, of course, drove the priests/nuns out of their mind. Interesting. In a way I guess it's kind of sad. It's almost like those long held childhood fantasies that are destroyed when we get older. I imagine it would be particularly devastating for someone who is very devout to learn things that make them doubt- or even reject those beliefs.
chbare Posted December 6, 2011 Posted December 6, 2011 (edited) Not at all. As an adult, you are better able to think abstractly. This can lead to an exciting and almost child like fascination with exploring the physical world. For example, I remember a chemistry lecture involving something called a p orbital. Basically, a volume of space with a high probability of finding an electron that is in a certain state with a certain energy in a Hydrogen atom. One of the orbitals is dumbbell shaped with something called a node that separates the lobes. You have probability density in one lobe and the other, but none at the node. So if the electron is in one lobe, how can it be in the other if it cannot exist between the lobes? That's the wave like behaviour of an electron. Made the hair on the back of my neck stand up. There are so many fascinating and mind blowing things to learn about the world. Edited December 6, 2011 by chbare
akflightmedic Posted December 6, 2011 Posted December 6, 2011 Dan Barker...one of my favorite authors. Was a priest for many, many years....now is one of those "new atheists" doing speeches and selling books. He is very open about his transition from preacher to atheist and produces highly enjoyable works. I put new atheist in quotations because the religious right often refers to us that way...when truthfully, we have always been here, it is just now slightly safer to make it known. There is fierce discrimination and persecution when making oneself known as an atheist. People do treat you differently, it can impact your job and it can bring your credibility into question. Quite amazing how this happens, but whatever. At least we are not being killed in the USA for this anymore, but the discrimination is significant. Anyways, Dan states some of the issues he has is people will say he was never truly a christian since he is no longer one. They will say he must not have known the "real god" or he did not pray hard enough...all kinds of crazy excuses when the truth of the matter is much like what I experienced. I could no longer reconcile my logic, my questions with my belief. It does not compute plain and simple, nothing more or nothing less. Nothing to do with loose morals, nothing to do with a tragedy in my life, just the simple fact that to me, it makes no sense. I do enjoy these threads, not to crush anyone but to question others and have them question me. You must have an open mind and be free to challenge anything and look within and then look externally for the answers. My questions and challenges may seem harsh to some but that is always the perception when drilling someone on their faith. It is an uncomfortable area to discuss for most cause it is easier to ignore and feel good than question and possibly have life long beliefs removed. How many of you continued to pretend long after you knew Santa, the bunny, or the fairy were no longer real? You did this because it felt good, you have those memories and that is why you now do it for your kids. You want them to feel good, to feel care free, to enjoy their childhood and relish the fantasies. As adults, all we have is reality and it does suck many, many times and a lot of people simply do not have proper coping mechanisms. I will close with one of my favorite "punchlines" directed towards those who believe and insist that without god we would have nothing to live for and no morals to keep everyone from raping, stealing, plundering, etc. First, I have EVERYTHING to live for. This is my one and only life so I am going to live it well by treating my fellow man with kindness and compassion, loving people, raising smart children and hoping the things I do will leave the world or my small bubble of it in a better place than when I first found it. Second, if YOUR belief in god is the only thing which prevents you from stealing, murdering, raping, etc...then PLEASE continue to believe. PLEASE do not stop your faith ever as it will keep me and my children safe. I on the other hand do not need a belief to prevent these things but apparently you believe it to be true, so please for the Love of God Do NOT STOP!
Paramagic Posted December 6, 2011 Posted December 6, 2011 Can't be long, have to go to bed, but I wanted to make a couple of comments not directed at any individuals, but just a couple of things that have crossed my mind reading this thread. Some of them have probably already been covered, sorry if that is the case (you'll have to google the studies yourselves) Homosexuality being aberrant: There is actually a large amount of homosexual behaviour in many different species, from "flings" to life-long pair bonding. So I can't really see how homosexuality can be considered to be against nature when it is so widespread in nature. It is certainly not a human only thing. Marriage being for procreation. I am a heterosexual, white male, happily married for many years. We do not have children, nor do my wife and I intend to have children. Is my marriage then not valid because it is not for the purposes of procreation? Marriage and social norms: Social norms change. We may not like it, but that is the way it is. In the same way, language changes. I hate text speak (LOL), poor grammar and so on (as I type these rambling, poorly constructed, nearly syntax free sentences ). But, language shifts and there is not a damn thing I can do about it. Ditto society shifting, societal norms changing, and so on. I wasn't particularly fond of the Reformation, but such is life; we adapt and move on. Besides the religious aspects, I really can see no reason to oppose gay marriage. If society accepted polygamy between consenting adults, I too would be fine with that. I'm sure that will be a battle for another time. Religion and education. There is a well established association between level of education and religiosity (I won't get into mental health and religiosity!) Low levels of education tends to be reflected in higher levels of religious sentiment, in particular of the evangelical type. Interestingly though, higher levels of education tend to be associated with less religion, but in some areas greater observance of religious ceremony (for example Catholicism or Judaism) Possibly the ceremony is appreciated for other aspects of it than the metaphysical or faith based aspect. Maybe more like meditation. 1
Just Plain Ruff Posted December 6, 2011 Posted December 6, 2011 What Santa isn't real?/????? childhood destroyed ha ha but my son is beginning to say "Santa is just you dad" so he's not going to believe much longer. I still believe in Santa because my children believe in Santa. Do I delude myself that Santa is real - nope. But until my children stop believeing and I think I've got at least 9 more years of believing in Santa I think I'm good. 1
Kaisu Posted December 6, 2011 Posted December 6, 2011 I think I've got at least 9 more years of believing in Santa I think I'm good. You know Ruff.. you are really very sweet.
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