Third times the charm?

[Eydawn]

We expect every n00b on the forum to come back swinging... when that's simply not the case. Not everyone wants to dig in and get in a knock down fight on the forums... I see some validity from both sides of where this argument above is going. He wants help from us, so he should respond to our suggestions...

However, someone from this forum is giving him individualized help and attention... so is there any point of continuing to respond? (A quick thanks might have been good, but whatev). Some of the most "upvoted" folks on here really did go ripping for new ones out the gate. It's kind of what we do, unfortunately.

You gotta offer the CARROT along with the stick sometimes... think about it this way, when you're educating patients, what gets a better response? "You dumb motherf*ker, how could you not understand that not taking your BP meds and eating salt like it's going out of style is causing your headache from the hypertension? You're stupid. Really." Or... "Hey, did anyone ever explain to you how salt can raise your blood pressure? I mean, really explain it? Or did they just tell you not to eat it?"

Think about it.

Wendy

CO EMT-B

[DFIB]

I am going to call you Mr. Ruff after your last post. You mounted a good defense although you have to admit that we all come off as buttheads in some of our post. I applaud you for helping this guy out.

One of the things that I think we forget or overlook after being in the medical field for some time is that if the EMT course is the first contact a person has with the medical field they are assimilating a world of information.

They are learning a new vocabulary. If the new vocabulary isn't enough every other word or procedure has an abbreviation.

They are learning only the basics of very complex biological systems and expected to understand how they work and interact with other very complex biological systems.

They are learning how the environment and medications affect all of those very complex systems and are expected to recognize and know what to do in each scenario.

They are learning system operations, rescue operations, legal issues, safety, and how they as EMTs fit into the grand scheme of things.

They are learning sheet after sheet of skills that only really make sense after they have had some experience that is almost impossible to get unless their service allows third party ride alongs before certification.

They learn all of these things in a very short time with the probability that they will end up driving a truck and carrying bags for their medic.

For a total non medical layman it is a world of information in a very short time.

That said we need to learn our curriculum and learn it well enough to pass the NREMT. The scenarios that the test present as questions and the multiple correct answers they provide are confusing. Looking for the "best answer" is difficult even for experienced EMTs.

Once again I applaud you for helping out a friend. If he works hard he will do fine. I have been helped many times in my life and it has made the difference between success and failure on many occasions.

[DwayneEMTP]

He came looking for tricks, not education. That's a bad thing.

The test is simple, but despite that he's had a gazillion people telling him how horrible it is and what a massive fail rate there is. Both are bullshit. Though it's not wrapped in velvet I believe that going into the test without believing that it's a hundred times harder than it actually is is a good thing.

He's got issues with spelling, grammar, punctuation, etc, etc...That is a bad thing.

I suggested that he check his attitude as he was pissed that the test wasn't easier, not wishing that he was better. That is also a bad thing.

A bunch of people, and yeah, some of us assholes, came to give him advice...gave him our time, yet as soon as he didn't get a bunch of rah rah bullshit answers then he couldn't be bothered any more. That's unprofessional, childish, and a bad thing.

Any one of those things seriously retards his ability to excel in EMS. He's got them all in spades, right? Can you tell me how the kind thing is to hold his hand instead of adjusting his focus so that he can succeed?

There are a million confident, intelligent basics vying for jobs every day. Can you tell me how convincing him that, though he's so timid that he can't stand to be criticized in a forum, that he really has a chance to compete and succeed in EMS is a good thing?

Can you explain to me how his new mentor coming into the forums and calling those willing to tell him the truth instead of blow smoke up his ass "Assholes" is helping him to succeed?

Good on you and CM for shedding some tears for him. I can't shed tears for everyone that's going to want to be in this field without working, and then fail. But I will bust my ass for anyone that wants to step up to the plate and try, whether the advice leading to success comes wrapped in kisses, or sandpaper.

Dust, ak, Asys, and many others sent me from these forums with my ass dripping blood. But I never considered not coming back. Not because I felt that a noob deserved it, because I don't, but because after considering their advice it was obvious that they were right. My attitude sucked, my plan was bullshit, I cared not one whit about EMS, but about getting a job instead. Everything changed because I came back, and I promise you that not one single person that spent their time on me has any doubt how grateful that I am that they've done so. Do you have doubts about that Mike?

The life blood of EMS is honest criticism...I want nothing more than for him to succeed. But that is NEVER going to happen in any respectable manner as long as he has mom and dad in the forums saying, "Pay no heed to those big meanies! They know not of what they speak! Here...have some coco...."

Reread my post and do me a favor and quote here every dishonest or unkind thing that I said. The firetruck comment wasn't even a stretch. Two attempts and the only unit he even came close to is Operations? Who the hell does that sound like to you?

Normally in a post like this I'll say something like, "Sorry if the tone sounds pissed, it's getting lost in the text."

But not here...do I sound pissed off? Yeah man, I really am. To convince this kid that hiding, and whining, and having his hand held is a good, respectable, entry into EMS is bad. To try and convince all of the noobs in the forums that it's good, and acceptable, is, well, fucking unacceptable.

Don't tell me he's not read this thread. Don't tell me he hides out of respect. If he's got the complete lack of balls to sit back and watch you to speak for him then I'm more than comfortable saying that he's no business in EMS. If he can't step up in a forum, then yeah, I want him nowhere near my family no matter how long you tutor him.

There are some setting him up for failure here, but it's not those that told him he needs a gut check, and you know that's the truth Capt Kickass...

Dwayne

[Just Plain Ruff]

well I can't argue with you Dwayne. You make good arguments but the reason why he stopped posting is that I was helping him out and he felt that that was enough. He came asking for help and he got the help.

Do you come back over and over to a place after you asked for help and have received it? I think not.

I'm sorry that you feel that you need to be the voice of truth in this forum, at times it's needed but at other times you sometimes make a big deal out of a molehill.

He asked for help, got the help from me as well as CM and he didn't really feel the need to come back and continue asking for help for the same question/problem.

Is that the wrong attitude to take on this or any forum?

And I really hope that you aren't referring to me as setting him up for failure because if you are inferring that then you are really way off base on that mark and frankly I'm a little pissed off that you would even make that accusation.

I'm not giving him any tricks to take the test. I hope you know me better than that. I'm not giving him any insight on how to pass the test without good old fashioned hard work and if you think I'm doing that then obviously you don't respect the fact that personalized help in this case is what he needs.

Plus the fire truck comment to him was an assumption on your part of which you knew nothing about this guy yet you think that just by one post from him or two posts you seem to know exactly what he's here for.

I'm not going to argue with you on this because it's self defeating and you will of course find some way to make your point more valid than mine.

There is a lot more in this kids dynamics that you don't have a clue on yet you make the assumption that he's just wanting tips and the easy way out. That might have been what he originally posted but this has morphed into something more than that.

It's good that you seem to have taken over the reigns of reason on this forum, goodness knows that this forum needs someone like you but you are not always right and in this case you are not right.

As for this comment - Don't tell me he's not read this thread. Don't tell me he hides out of respect. If he's got the complete lack of balls to sit back and watch you to speak for him then I'm more than comfortable saying that he's no business in EMS. If he can't step up in a forum, then yeah, I want him nowhere near my family no matter how long you tutor him

All I can say is that when you arrived on this forum, there were some who might have said that they wanted you nowhere near their family. That's an arrogant attitude to take when you only have one or two posts from this person. I remember when you arrived on this forum as well as when I arrived here and there were some who may have thought the same thing about us. I'm not saying that I thought that.

Again this discussion is getting tiresome as neither of us will change our minds as to what is the correct.

[DFIB]

Since I am taking the NREMT tomorrow I checked in on the mechanics and no matter what people’s experience was before, the new format seems like a beast. Since this has been discussed before I will clarify here.

The computer adapted test is different than the old linear test. In a linear test every person gets the same sampling of questions from a given subject under the assumption that if they know the sampling they know the rest as well. This is the old NREMT testing method even after it was computerized. Well prepared candidates thought it was easy, others thought it has hard.

The NREMT now uses a Computer Adapted Testing combined with the Item Response Theory. This combination test tailor makes a test for each person according to their competency level. Essentially every NREMT test now seems to be the hardest test for every person because the more you know the harder your questions will be until the computer can define your level of competency. Every time the candidate answers a question, the computer re-estimates his or her ability.

The way it works is that the more correct answers you get the harder the questions become until you reach the limit of your knowledge. After that it will give you an easier question and then a harder one at the same competency level, With every additional answer, the ability estimate gets more precise.

Based upon the most recent, revised ability estimate, the computer selects the next item to be presented, such that the candidate will find it challenging. By doing this they challenge each candidate to limit of his/her ability. So everyone thinks the test is difficult.

There is no minimum percentage of questions required to pass of Technically every candidate only gets 50% of the questions right but since each person is tested at a different ability level the computer determines if a person is above or below the passing standard.

It is intimidating and I am spooked by this method of testing as I am totally unfamiliar with it.

[b.anderson]

The NREMT now uses a Computer Adapted Testing combined with the Item Response Theory. This combination test tailor makes a test for each person according to their competency level. Essentially every NREMT test now seems to be the hardest test for every person because the more you know the harder your questions will be until the computer can define your level of competency. Every time the candidate answers a question, the computer re-estimates his or her ability.

That's interesting, it's the first time I heard of that. Of course, I'm up here in Canada. Good luck on the exam, DFIB.

All the best,

B. Anderson

[Eydawn]

Unfortunately, as usually happens in these threads we're now talking only to ourselves.

He's not looking to be a professional EMT. He came for the magic bullet to pass the test without understanding the material and has no interest in participating further.

I didn't read that. What I saw was him post a couple times, get chawed on, have someone decide to tutor him, and then drop off the radar for a while. We'll see if he comes back or not. Maybe he's too busy... STUDYING? Just a thought...

I really, really wish I had a trick for hooking these folks. If I had the right words to make them understand, like many here did for me, instead of chasing them off then I think I might actually do some good.

I think that that is the challenge, and should be the goal for all of us. To hook and then try and help improve these posters instead of making the climb the giant ego endangering mountain that begins with "You're an idiot!" We've seen many, many, (what appeared to be) experienced medics that couldn't do it. I thinks it's foolish to assume a noob basic is going to manage very often.

And you're surprised that he left and hasn't come back so far? Take a look back...

It's easy to say, "Well, if they can't stand a little criticism then they don't belong in EMS!" But they are entering the field with or without the help of the many really smart folks here. So that battle cry, no matter how passionate and sincere rings hollow when we judge it's potential to be productive, right?

But, how to be honest and productive without being at least a little bit intimidating? Yeah...man.....I have no idea.

Dwayne

This was your good post. And rereading this thread, I didn't see any major flags from this poster that he was a poseur or anything. Nor did I really read that he's in it for guts, glory, patch, firefighter... he genuinely wanted to figure out how to pass the test...

Let's put it this way- if he's willing to relearn the entire basis of material via Mike's teaching, doesn't that tell you something? I'm telling you, not everyone responds to "sack up!" the same way. It took some cajoling, hard hitting, and gentle coaxing in COMBO to get you to where you started posting well...

Just sayin'...

Wendy

CO EMT-B

New post, in case the damn thing combines on me...

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This testing style is exactly what the NCLEX uses as well. Not to mention the added fun of multiple multiples, multiple correct (but one is BETTER in your vague ass situation for some reason) answers, and questions that aren't scored, but used to vett their usefulness for FUTURE tests.

It's a test based solely on multivariable statistical analysis. We've been taking practice cumulative CBT exams called HESI at the end of certain nursing courses... compares you to other RN students (diploma, ADN and BSN) taking it within the last 6 months or so... good predictive analysis for NCLEX pass rates and gives you specific tutorial material for your areas of weakness. I actually like CBT for some reason... must be the part of my brain that was programmed by reading too much science fiction, I get along splendidly in a virtual world for some reason...

Wendy

CO EMT-B