HERBIE1 Posted January 18, 2012 Posted January 18, 2012 I've read this thread with great interest, but I have refrained from chiming in until now. It seems my opinion is probably of the minority type, but it's not the first time I've been in this situation- ie not this cowboy's first rodeo. While utopian ideas like this sound great on paper, they are almost without exception, unsustainable. Taking away the historical examples like Russia and Cuba, communism is a great concept, but the fly in the ointment is always man's innate greed. There will ALWAYS be the have's and the have not's, but in concepts like communism and it's progeny- socialism, there simply are more have not's, who then become dependents to the ruling class and to the government, who become their great benefactor. I guess I'm simply too cynical to consider such ideas as being anything besides a nice rhetorical excercise. I'm also too set in my ways to adapt to such a drastic idea even if I thought it could work. I just returned from a road trip for a convention in Kansas City, Mo with 6 guys. We had 3 hotel rooms between us, and thankfully we all got along famously, but too often that is not the case. Even with the best intentions- everyone wants to get along, allegedly have the same interests and intentions, but personality clashes become inevtiable. Folks have different perceptions of attaining the same goals- whether they be a communal or co-op living arrangement, or a simple vacation or road trip. Couple that with a few strong, unyielding personalities and to me it's a recipe for disaster. So if Dwayne's idea comes to fruition, I would love to visit for a weekend if you guys would have me, but count me out as a permanent resident. (No offense intended to Dwayne or anyone who is still untainted enough to be willing to give such an idea a try)
chbare Posted January 18, 2012 Posted January 18, 2012 I would not classify Dwayne's sociological musing as Communism however. I had a similar experience to him as well. It was an incredible experience gathering around the table with my mates at meal time and having what I can only describe as a "family dinner." Even better, was the fact that I was the only American, yet was living a common experience with people who were from all parts of the globe. Of course, we all had good reason to get along, mainly self preservation and the fact that we were being paid good wages. Again, I think a certain amount of relativistic context is needed to look beyond our own experiences and biases. However, I must admit my own bias, and it is not consistent with Dwayne's vision as presently presented. I am very independent and often use my living area as my personal think tank. Sometimes, I yell at my self or talk through the many ideas I have rolling around in my head. Clearly, a potential issue when living in close quarters with other people. Even though I am married, we are both fiercely independent and live accordingly. I did contract work overseas and was in the military and my wife is currently doing remote medicine up north. Therefore, we resonate perfectly, a situation that I do not expect to occur with any degree of frequency.
HERBIE1 Posted January 18, 2012 Posted January 18, 2012 I would not classify Dwayne's sociological musing as Communism however. I had a similar experience to him as well. It was an incredible experience gathering around the table with my mates at meal time and having what I can only describe as a "family dinner." Even better, was the fact that I was the only American, yet was living a common experience with people who were from all parts of the globe. Of course, we all had good reason to get along, mainly self preservation and the fact that we were being paid good wages. Again, I think a certain amount of relativistic context is needed to look beyond our own experiences and biases. However, I must admit my own bias, and it is not consistent with Dwayne's vision as presently presented. I am very independent and often use my living area as my personal think tank. Sometimes, I yell at my self or talk through the many ideas I have rolling around in my head. Clearly, a potential issue when living in close quarters with other people. Even though I am married, we are both fiercely independent and live accordingly. I did contract work overseas and was in the military and my wife is currently doing remote medicine up north. Therefore, we resonate perfectly, a situation that I do not expect to occur with any degree of frequency. I never said Dwayne was advocating a communist idea, I was using that as a point of comparison for an idyllic concept. I also need my personal space-whether it is to decompress, or simply sort out the various conflicting voices in my head. LOL
Richard B the EMT Posted January 18, 2012 Posted January 18, 2012 I'm going to ask my former girlfriend, Yvette, who lived on the kibbutz in Israel, what they did there, that made a kibbutz successful. Also, she was a NY State EMT, back in the 1970s. As to whether Yvette will answer the question(s), no clue. I'll give her my usual disclosure that I intend to publish what she writes me. (10 minutes later) OK, E-Mail sent, worded as follows... Hi, Yvette. In some of my previous contacts with you, I'm sure that I mentioned that I was a frequent contributor to the EMT City web site (www.EMTCity.com), under the name "Richard B, the EMT". One of the strings I am on is "Reading suggestions regarding communal philosophy". Some of the "city" members feel that communal living is doomed to failure, and cite the former USSR, and Cuba as examples. I mentioned the apparently successful, and continuing Kibbutz "systems" (for my lack of a better term) in Israel. Could you advise of a few items of Kibbutz living that might tell how they succeed, and, if you want, how they might need improvement? It will be my intent to put this information on the web site, and on that string, after removing anything, aside from your first name, that might be traced back to you, for your personal security. Thank you in advance for this help. Richard B. 1
DwayneEMTP Posted January 18, 2012 Author Posted January 18, 2012 Yeah, it's not for everyone, though comparing a few day trip with some buddies to those having lived it for months and years at a time really isn't valid. Is it doomed to failure? Sure...but so is democracy. We'll all be buried under so much dust someday, to be discovered by others, the same as every other society that's come before us, it's only a matter of time. And as explained above, communal living is not synonymous, or at least doesn't have to be, with communism, or even socialism. And we get that most people that have never done it believe that it sucks, is to restrictive, invades their private space, and is socialst, but what about it might you like? Surely you can find something about it that you like that would add to the discussion of how it might be successful? I came into this thread understanding that there was no huge challenge to punch holes in the idea...I need ideas to help make it work...cause I'm gonna do it, one way or another.... :-) Help a brother out, would you? Tongue in cheek, obvious exceptions to the comments excluded. Dwayne
Just Plain Ruff Posted January 18, 2012 Posted January 18, 2012 Dwayne I think it's doable. Definately. I'm not against this type of living relationship but boundaries have to be set. You need to deterimine what is an acceptable number of people that you will or "want" to have in the group? Is it 5 or is it 50? Next you need to find a location that will fit all those who you want to include. If the number is small then a small apartment building might be a good fit. If there's 50 or so, then something much bigger is needed. That is what I think might be your biggest hurdle is finding the right place(location) to begin your journey. I found quite a bit of useful websites via "google" if you put in communal living in the search field. The best one I found is www.ic.org Hope it helps Are you planning on living off the grid so to speak? If so you will need some additional resources that you often take for granted. Consider rainwater collection - some states have laws against diverting rain water to your own personal consumption/use. Yes, they really do have laws like that. Are you planning on living a somewhat normal life and just living communally where every one provides for their own livelihood or are you truly going the collective way and what you bring to the group becomes the groups. I don't recommend that focus. Too much of a risk to the group. The what's mine is yours mentality makes a slippery slope. Plus how are you going to determine who the effective leader is? Is it by election or by who brings in the most stuff? Is the determination made by who is the most charismatic(bad precedent - see Jim Jones, Warren Jeffs, David Koresh) Will you allow christians, muslims, atheists, agnostics etc etc in or do they have to be all the same religion? What about political leanings? Are all parties welcome or do you preclude those of one particular political party but not another? You have a huge road ahead of you if you truly do go through with this. Good luck. I have other thoughts but I'll leave them off here for a while.
DwayneEMTP Posted January 18, 2012 Author Posted January 18, 2012 ...You need to deterimine what is an acceptable number of people that you will or "want" to have in the group? Is it 5 or is it 50?... B.F. Skinner believed, if I remember right from his book Walden Two, that about 100 is optimum. I can't remember now why, but that seems like a massive number to me. Most of the hotels for sale in the price range that I'd imagine would be realistic were betwween 15-40 rooms. I think that 20-40 would be a good, though challenging number. And in fact, that feels intuitive to me, I can in no way defend those as logical, or realistic numbers. ...Are you planning on living off the grid so to speak? If so you will need some additional resources that you often take for granted... No, on the grid and participate in society the same as anyone else. Another thing Skinner warned about was trying to be separate. He claimed that the govt won't allow you to live as a community off of the grid, and I think that Waco, as well as other examples proves this out. Movies, restaraunts, common culture and fashion...nothing radical here really other than the desire to rebel against the "We're best when we're alone' macho, western mentality that's been beaten into our heads, but easily proved bullshit. ...Are you planning on living a somewhat normal life and just living communally where every one provides for their own livelihood or are you truly going the collective way and what you bring to the group becomes the groups. I don't recommend that focus. Too much of a risk to the group. The what's mine is yours mentality makes a slippery slope... I'm not sure yet. I do know that I want everyone to have like quarters. I have this pipe dream that we'll have someone that can watch kids while single moms/dads get their degrees, and moms/dads can pay their way by cleaning rooms, cooking, etc. I imagine that some will pay with money, others with services, but I really don't want elite or servant classes. How to pay, how to survive...that's the toughest question... ...Plus how are you going to determine who the effective leader is? Is it by election or by who brings in the most stuff? Is the determination made by who is the most charismatic(bad precedent - see Jim Jones, Warren Jeffs, David Koresh)... I think that in the beginning there has to be a sole leader, and I'd imagine that that will be me. Though my goal is, supposing a population of committed, kind, intelligent people, that a better system can be devised before long. ...Will you allow christians, muslims, atheists, agnostics etc etc in or do they have to be all the same religion?... I've no religious affiliation, though would welcome all religions and would like to have a small chapel for worship for those that choose to. But religion should be kept in the same manner as a couples sexual preferences and personal antics. Private, and not considered a common topic for polite, public conversation. But again, as 'radical' and 'extreme' people of any ideology, in my opinion, seem to be narrow minded and aggressive, I can't imagine that they would be likely to find us a realistic option, nor we them, so I don't predict that this will be a huge problem. ...What about political leanings? Are all parties welcome or do you preclude those of one particular political party but not another?.. Any party of course...this isn't an interment camp... :-) I think the more variety, within certain paramaters, the better. With politics as with all things, hopefully kindness and good taste will rule the day. Thanks for the website Mike, I'll take a look through it as soon as I can.. Dwayne
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