Searching Psych Patients

[strippel]

Everyone gets searched, or padded down. Voluntary, or court ordered.

Preferably by someone other than me, an LEO or Hospital security. If not, they empty out their pockets, lift up shirts, arms, and legs in front of a witness (RN, someone not family or EMS).

I think both LE and the hospital let you down, BIG TIME! Their staff, security, and county delegate (who ever was initially involved) should all be reprimanded.

YOUR SAFETY COMES FIRST!

I have taken away pocket knives and razors from behavioral health patients while they are being discharged from the ED, for transport to the psych facility. Also, psych patient belongings travel in the front of the ambulance. if possible, keep them in their gown, without shoes (if your ED does that). It's kinda hard to jump, or run away with now shoes and paper scrubs.

[Dustdevil]

I think both LE and the hospital let you down, BIG TIME! Their staff, security, and county delegate (who ever was initially involved) should all be reprimanded.

Good point. Although when it's an EMT vs. any hospital employee, the EMT always loses. Doesn't matter who is right or wrong. We are the low men on the scrotum pole, so we are always wrong. Regardless, I would write up a formal report and insist that your agency file it with hospital administration. I don't recommend you do anything without informing your agency though.

[Yummymedic05]

Must just be my *sparkling personality* (which really means horrible temper) but I always INSIST my patients are searched if they are suspicious to me...and I get my way. I will argue with anyone over it, its MY safety, its MY CHILD'S mother out there, Im not going down cause I wanted to please anyone!

[EMT001]

Our PD is automatically dispatched to any scene involving an EDP or ETOH. They search all EDP, and, upon request, and individual under the influence of ETOH. Personally, I am not overly concernced about what my patients have in their pockets, but that is probably because I am only 19 and have absolutely no obligations to anyone but myself.

[ctmed5408]

I think you are totally legitimate with you expectation that the patient be searched prior to being placed in your vehicle. I search every patient under these circumstances, both 911 and non-911 transfer. I ask them to comply vountarily and most do. If they refuse, I will call PD and that usually gets them to comply once they see I am serious. In the event that a patient does something like what yours did, they would be secured immediately. By secured I mean as soon as I saw that knife, needle, etc. come out of their pocket, they need to be physically secured immediately. Unfortuantely, I don't have the luxury of having PD immediately available, especially on every call, so that's the way we do it. PD would then be requested and the patient would be charged accordingly if a crime was committed(drugs, weapons, etc). We have a great relationship with our PD so they are great about getting there ASAP once requested. There just isn't enough of them. Things used to be pretty bad but now we have minimized problems and most patients are cooperative and comply with our requests no problem. Many are "regulars" and know what will happen if they don't behave.

[Just Plain Ruff]

As for the poster who says they would get a trip to the unemployment line if you searched too many patients or something like that.

My question is this --- do you really want to be working for a service who puts the safety of their employee behind that of the inconvenience of a search of a patient.

It's all about safety people, Trust your instincts and search em I say. If the cop was going to be transporting them in his car he would definately do a search.

The service you work for would take a different tune if had you not have searched the guy and he injured you with the knife/razor he took out.

Or then again they might have fired you for not searching the patient. It's a double edged sword.

Good job on your instincts.

[Richard B the EMT]

I would think it has a lot to do with local protocols and common practices, however, you should have the LEOs doing the "toss" either automatically, or on an EMS crew's request.

If it isn't common practice in your area, talk to the legislators to create laws that make it so.

The LEOs are, at least in my area, better trained in handling those searches than us in EMS, and usually tell me, without prompting, that they've checked an EDP or ETOH abuser for drugs, sharp things, and weapons before I even get to a scene.

[Ace844]

As for the poster who says they would get a trip to the unemployment line if you searched too many patients or something like that.

My question is this --- do you really want to be working for a service who puts the safety of their employee behind that of the inconvenience of a search of a patient.

It's all about safety people, Trust your instincts and search em I say. If the cop was going to be transporting them in his car he would definately do a search.

The service you work for would take a different tune if had you not have searched the guy and he injured you with the knife/razor he took out.

Or then again they might have fired you for not searching the patient. It's a double edged sword.

Good job on your instincts.

"Ruff,"

Unfortunately, the realities of EMS and the companies who provide it in this state are such that if you make waves, for any reason, right, wrong, or otherwise, you get fired.... Do not pass go, do not collect $200.....Proceed directly to being Black listed, and unemployed...

You asked, "Do I really want to do you really want to be working for a service who puts the safety of their employee behind that of the inconvenience of a search of a patient." The short answer is NO!! But again, lucky for me I'm abit smarter than I let on and I can take care of my self with most issues, + being good at what i do helps alot as well.... It's just that when this kid decided to make the decision that he did, it set into motion a chain of events; which when he did it, it left everyone, scrambling not to be the only one left standing when the music stopped. Also, please let me know when I can expect you to start paying both my salary and other expenses, ahahahahaha, lol!!

I'm glad that afterI had a previous close call/bad experience with a call similar to this one that I initiated a policy to search all patient's who were of this type. Frankly, I was told that had I stuck to my guns at the hospital EMH in the first place it would have brought this out sooner, but I was later told it would have resulted in a facility complaint which would have gotten me fired anyway...food for thought kiddies!! It is a sad day when you have to consider if your safety is possibly worth getting fired over.

So all of this got me to wondering how pervasive is this issue in our profession. Also, I had hopes that others may learn from this situation and maybe be more aware when encountering these types of patients/calls.....

Hope this helps,

Ace844

[Just Plain Ruff]

But to me this is a black and white issue. My safety comes first. If I don't feel comfortable then I'm going to do something to remedy my feeling uncomfortable. No one but myself guarantees my safety. Remember what I've said in a previous post, even though there are two officers on scene this just means that there are also 2 guns on scene.

If something doesn't feel right and it sure sounds like you didn't feel right taking this kid without being searched and look what you found.

Frankly I don't care if there is a complaint lodged against me, if my safety is jeopardized and god forbid I'm injured or even killed then who is going to help my family out? Certainly not any work place I've ever worked at.

So bottom line to me is that if you think someone needs to be searched the by golly do it. The life you save may be your own.

[Ace844]

But to me this is a black and white issue. My safety comes first. If I don't feel comfortable then I'm going to do something to remedy my feeling uncomfortable. No one but myself guarantees my safety. Remember what I've said in a previous post, even though there are two officers on scene this just means that there are also 2 guns on scene.

If something doesn't feel right and it sure sounds like you didn't feel right taking this kid without being searched and look what you found.

Frankly I don't care if there is a complaint lodged against me, if my safety is jeopardized and god forbid I'm injured or even killed then who is going to help my family out? Certainly not any work place I've ever worked at.

So bottom line to me is that if you think someone needs to be searched the by golly do it. The life you save may be your own.

"Ruff,"

I agree whole heartedly, I continue to practice in this manner, and will always look out for #1...I just hope others maybe able to learn something from these posts and this situation....

Also, my concern wasn't necessarily about the complaint, frankly in hindsight I wish I had pushed the issue at the sending facility, this could have turned out alot worse (read larger crap storm than the one which ensured post what this patient did) for me and my partner....

When I saw what this kid had in his pocket upset doesn't begin to describe what i was thinking/feeling.....

out here,

Ace844