Searching Psych Patients

[Dustdevil]

At this point you must call your supervisor to handle the issue. Most departments have a contingency for this type of event written into their SOPS...

Just curious, how many EMS agencies have you worked for that you are so sure "most" of them have written policies addressing this?

[paramedicmike]

The simple answer, is that you CANNOT LEGALLY put your hands inside of their pockets. Doing so would be a violation of their Constitutional right against an unreasonable search.

How so? We're not law enforcement therefore it wouldn't constitute an unreasonable search. Unreasonable search and seizure accounts for situations regarding law enforcement. The worst they could do for us is try to get us charged with pickpocketing.

Most departments have a contingency for this type of event written into their SOPS, so, depending on your department, you shouldn't fear disciplinary action for your choice.

I was going to say the same thing Dustdevil did but he beat me to it. All the places I've worked for have nothing to address this.

-be safe.

[Ace844]

Having not read all of the posts, I am assuming that the last page and a half stems around the argument of whether or not an EMT/Paramedic can search a patient, and whether or not they can be punished for their action.

It would probably be a good idea for you to actually read the thread to which your responding.

The simple answer, is that you CANNOT LEGALLY put your hands inside of their pockets. Doing so would be a violation of their Constitutional right against an unreasonable search. These individuals are not under arrest, and, therefore, we have no right to place our hands into their pockets. If you suspect that your patient may have weapons, and do not feel safe transporting them, you have two options. First, you can call the police. Like we all know, if the patient is an immediate danger to the safety of themselves or others, we can have the police place them in protective custody. At that point, the police are legally allowed to search the patient.

This applies to Law enforcement as noted above. Next, you are looking for weapons, and to protect yourself, not to try to "find" something to send your patient to jail. Furthermore, that doesn't mean that you may not choose to involve the police once "illegal items" are found. Also, for those who are interested. You should not be placeing your hands into pockets you can't see into. Take your trauma shears and cut the pocket down its outside seam. This will cause the objects in the pocket to fall out or be exposed.

Your second option is to refuse to transport the patient due to safety concerns. At this point you must call your supervisor to handle the issue. Most departments have a contingency for this type of event written into their SOPS, so, depending on your department, you shouldn't fear disciplinary action for your choice. Any other search of an individual is considered illegal, and you would have to face the consequences of that choice.

Agreed.

out here,

Ace844

[EMT001]

Here is where you guys are mistaken...Law enforcement or not, no one has the right to put their hands into another person's pockets. If you do, prepare to face the consequences if the person makes a big deal out of it.

And, to answer your other question, of the three services I have worked for, all have had something in their SOP's about the scenario.

[Dustdevil]

Here is where you guys are mistaken...Law enforcement or not, no one has the right to put their hands into another person's pockets.

Can you give us a link to the applicable federal statute, please?

And please do not post again in this tread until you find it.

And, to answer your other question, of the three services I have worked for, all have had something in their SOP's about the scenario.

Can you please post contact information for at least two of those three agencies. They are obviously so progressive that the rest of us could learn valuable lessons from them.

[AnthonyM83]

And nobody follows my ambulance anywhere either. Family either goes ahead of me and meets me there, or they get intercepted by police enroute.

Do you mean when you're travelling lights & sirens or for all transports?

LIZARD, I'm sure the gloves do work, but I think it'd be a pain to put them on and off each time, as well as to carry them with you. I don't think they fold nicely into a pouch.

[AnthonyM83]

EMT100, I was waiting for someone to bring up this issue as I read through the thread. You posted pretty much exactly what I was going to say, including the two options.

Guys, we can't just start searching someone without permission. If I was standing on a street corner and a guy started going through my pockets, he'd be going to jail for assault or battery (after the trip to the ER). I realize that you guys are talking about searching a patient for a call you've been dispatched to, but I don't think there's a specific law saying EMS personnel can search patients.

The burden of proof isn't on EMT100. You guys each have to consult with local law, case law, local LE, wording of your EDP/involuntary psych hold laws, your medical director, protocols, or state DA, because while you certainly won't be arrested (b/c the cops understand why you're searching), the patients can bring action against you, later, because they has a law backing them up (242 P.C. in Calif.). Most patients wouldn't want to do this, but if they ended up going to jail b/c of something you found, they might choose to pull you into their mess to try and save themselves.

[kevkei]

IF you don't want me to search you before we get into an enclosed space, you can walk away and I will refuse to treat or transport you.

For those of you that are nieve enough to think it is illegal to "search' someones pockets, think again. There is more than one way to skin a cat and thus, there is more than one way to search a person. You can do a cursory quick pat down and feel for potential weapons or other concealed items. If in your judgement you feel there is something there (i.e a knife) you should have the right to either:

- remove it,

- call for the police or

- leave the scene.

Two of those three options involve delaying care and/or abandoning the patient. Which makes more sense? Isolate the potential threat. Do you think a D.A would honestly try to bring charges against you for trying to protect yourself and go home to your family?

Our department has SOP's on how to deal with abusive/aggressive/violent patients. We have also been issued ballistic vests and trained and certified in Pressure Point Control Tactics as a form of self defense as well as situational awareness training. What does this mean? It means our department recognizes that we often work in unsafe environments and have taken measures to help us protect ourselves.

[AnthonyM83]

Reread my last post. The threat isn't DA or police, it's the patient deciding to sue.

Sometimes there's going to be cases where you might have to search patient anyway, for the safety of everyone, but you should be aware of the low possibility of future legal reprecussions. Hey, you might end up winning and creating case law in our favor, but just be aware of the law.

One of the things I can think of that will save you is if it's an implied consent treatment (Suicidal, Under the Influence, Altered LOC). They can't refuse treatment and you would have searched in order to treat them, thus implied consent might cover searching them. Protocols such will come into play during the case, but unless there's caselaw on that, you can't count on that as a defense.

[lizard90048]

Regardless of whether or not you search your patients, be sure to follow your local protocols, and strap your psych patients down (if you can). If nothing else, watch them like a hawk.

AMR out here in Southern California is being sued for the death of a psych patient:

"Nov 29, 2005.

Employees of an ambulance company failed to properly supervise a 13-year-old boy in their care who died after jumping from the moving vehicle, according to a lawsuit.

The wrongful death claim was filed Nov. 22 in San Bernardino County Superior Court on behalf of Brian Molina's mother, Delores Gutierrez-Molina.

Brian was being transported from Loma Linda University Medical Center to a Chino hospital on Aug. 12 about 2:50 p.m. when he was somehow able to free himself from his gurney restraints.

He jumped to his death from the ambulance onto the 10 Freeway west of Waterman Avenue in San Bernardino.

According to the lawsuit, ambulance attendees were aware that Brian had behavioral problems that required him to be closely watched and required his wrists and ankles to be tightly secured on the gurney.

The lawsuit alleges the employees violated California law by failing to make sure he was safe.

A spokesman for American Medical Response said the ambulance company is unaware of the lawsuit and declined comment.

Neither Gutierrez-Molina nor her attorney, John Henley, could be reached for comment on Monday.

Paul Chaney, Brian's uncle, said the lawsuit reveals what family members have believed all along.

"It's obvious to anybody who knows the basic facts of the case (that) if they were doing their job, the kid wouldn't have been able to jump out," he said.

Authorities have not revealed whether anyone was in the back of the ambulance with Brian when he jumped, and the lawsuit does not specifically allege Brian was alone.

The lawsuit seeks general damages, as well as medical and burial costs, attorney's fees and other related expenses.

Chaney said the community has generously donated to help the family with funeral and burial expenses"