Searching Psych Patients

[Ace844]

"AnthonyM83 & others,"

I agree with "Dust, and Kev," et. al. in their posts and opinions on this. I will further say that if you don't search your patient's and or make sure they are unarmed, etc...than you are putting yourself at risk and may not go home afetr that call. Next, if you fail to search your patients as mentioned here because you are worried, about jeopardizing the "rights" of a patient or some scumbag whose intent it is to hurt you, the solution is simple.

1.) Wriet a registered letter to your areas Attorney Generals office and or presiding legal authority/court system and ask for a letter of opinion on the applicable statues, etc...

2.) Write another "registered" letter to the DPH/OEMS of the state or area in which you work and aks for a second letter of opinion/policy and for guidance on this matter.

By doing the above actions you will have your answer and if you act within those guidlines, you will be protected...

out here,

Ace844

[AnthonyM83]

Kevkei,

No offense taken. I understand sometimes one must be blunt in order to get the message across, without meaning disrespect. Especially true in public safety.

I want to re-re-re-emphasize that safety is my first priority as well. I don't want anyone to put their safety at jeopardy by not searching someone when they feel it's the best course of action, regardless of legal technicalities.

I just want to pass on information I've learned from other trainings. Maybe if you have a patient that looks like he might want to cause you trouble, you'll be sure to do the search in in front of your partner or do extra documentation on why you searched or whatever else to CYA, IF you feel like taking those steps. Or just use the info however you'd like. You decide.

Your statement that we'd be guilty of battery on a daily basis is right, but usually don't have to worry about it, right? No harm is done and people usually don't care or are grateful for your contact. IF that contact leads to say, patient being arrested for possession of a firearm or controlled substance, there's the potential for him to try to drag you into his mess to TRY and save himself. Not likely, but in public safety, you tend to deal with the unlikelies a lot more than the general public, right?

While I've worked in hostile environments in another public safety capacity, I haven't worked in EMS yet, so I don't mean to tell you it's impolite; rather I just mean to tell you to keep aware.

Respectfully,

Anthony

[Letterman]

I search psych patients based upon their affect, past history, and current complaint. If the patient shows any sign of aggression or offensive gestures I stand back and allow the police to take care of such measures. A patient who feels depressed and voluntarily wishes to be seen at the hospital may bring a travel bag with them, but I do not feel that I have any right or duty to arbitrarily inspect all of their possessions. If I suspected the possibility of foul play, I would and do so in front of another professional from another allied agency as a witness of what was done, or get a cop to do it. I just hate when I am accused of stealing my patients dentures from their personal belongings. :shock: Maybe the urban environment that I work in is not that of LA, NY, or Detroit... Any offensive gun or knife waving patient of mine in the past has not hidden it from me, it was already on them and visible when I happened to unknowingly walk around a corner into their area.

[paramedicmike]

How about this...you're not searching a patient at all. You are conducting an assessment. While you talk to them, you're assessing their mental status. While you are touching them, you are assessing their physical status while at the same time assessing (on a certain level) their ability to cause harm by use of a weapon. Don't use the word search. Don't even think about it. You are assessing your patient.

However, there is no such thing as a hands off assessment. You cannot assess a patient without physically coming into contact with them. As such, conducting an appropriate assessment will result in a de-facto search of the patient. No assault. No battery. Assessment only.

If they object, you stop and get the police involved.

An EMT instructor is not necessarily the best source of information regarding legal matters. For legal advice, consult a lawyer. And just because an EMT instructor said it doesn't mean its true.

And Kev is right regarding the possibility of you getting hurt on the job. If you operate on the street the same way you've been arguing here you're opening yourself up. Experience in a (unnamed) public safety capacity may or may not be beneficial to you. Things in EMS are done differently than in other places. As such, it requires a different mind set and way of thinking. One of the best ways to get it is through hands on in the field experience.

While I'm glad you recognize that scene safety is important, I don't get the sense from your postings that you have a solid grasp on what it really means.

Get some experience in the field as an EMS provider. I think, after some time on the streets, you'll think differently than from what you've been posting and future posts will reflect that change.

-be safe...and don't get killed.

[AnthonyM83]

I like the way you put that Mike.

I do want to explain that EMT instructors taught me about informed consent, but police officers taught me the legal stuff.

Officer safety is my number one priority. This includes seeing things that could be used as weapons against you if a patient went sideways on you (including your own tools), watching surroundings, non verbal communication from people around you, stances/positioning, exposing self while leaning over or listening to lung sounds so close to a patient, traffic dangers, environmental and non-human dangers) and many more that I'm sure I'll learn when I get out on the road somewhere or hopefully from others on this site.