Paragod: Fact or Fiction?

October 23, 2005

Ok Dust... Hopefully back to your original question....

I have seen tons of Paragods in my 15 years.. but in that same time I have also seen at LEAST half a ton of overzealous EMT-B's. In regards to your "usually when I see a car with lights, sirenst, stethoscope on the mirror" statement... around here, I see MANY more First Responders like that than EMT-B's. If we want to talk about people with the "Syndrome"... then your FR Whackers definitely fit the bill. With that said... I wouldn't know what to do without them, they are a TREMENDOUS support, and fulfill a VERY necessary need.

And we EMT-B's DO TOO have people that we can boss around... We have First Responders, Non-EMS Fire Service Personnel, etc... the difference is... we usually hang out with those guys after work, etc.. and CHOOSE not to harass them as much.. you know the old saying.. What goes around comes around! I hate being on the "payback" end of a Fire Fighters Prank. Anywhoo, with that said, I guess I'm finished with MY 2 cents.

Be Safe!

Dustdevil · October 23, 2005

I can see that view. We just don't get it here in Texas where all professional firefighters are EMT's. Therefore, the default level of "first responder" really is EMT here. We have a lower "first responder" level of training, but we don't see it much, even in the rural volunteer areas. It is pretty well dying out since EMT became required for firemen.

October 24, 2005

DELETED

Ace844 · October 24, 2005

>"yeah we gave him 4 purple boxes, a yellow, and a green! He stayed in a pulseless type rhythmn, and never came back. >Unknown down time, and he's a diabetic, we were at his house ealier but he was fine and we got a refusal!!!"

This story, and the fact you expect us to believe it, really shows that exactly what paramedics have to go through to become certified is still very much a mystery to most lower level providers. You do not have pharmacology, pathophysiology, and anatomy and physiology pounded into your head and still think of the medications by color codes. If this story is indeed true, the medic was being as &*%hole and flippant. This reminds me of the EMT-lieutenant who told me medics couldn't diagnose a "heart attack" without our machines. She must have meant the heart attack detector we carry.

In regards to what Dust said, yes, in a busy system the amount of patients needing care sometimes makes for the need to give condensed patient care reports. Somewhere along the lines people who really want to work in busy systems thought the way condensed reports were given sounded "cool." These people are stupid. I've seen BLS providers flip out when they don't think medics are giving a report "properly". A proper verbal report is when you get the most critical information to the doctor and nurses in the shortest time possible. For example: Doctor: What's going on? Medic: Tight Asthmatic, used her pump three times today without relief, prior history of intubation in 1994, wheezing in all fields, EKG is normal but fast, gave her 3 treatments, point three of epi, started a line, also gave her 2 grams of mag and 12 of dex, she's opened up some but her sat still sucks.

This is not the proper medical terminology, but the medic is not saying it to sound "cool", he is saying it to get the critical information out their quickly.

"Asysin2leads,"

My post was infact true, and it did happen ( This incident occured about 4 yrs ago. Funny the medics seemed to get smarter for awhile, now it seems lately that more and more we're back to what I will now call "the box color mentality") , this was essentially the report given to the ER staff. This medic no longer works, nor has a cert to practice, it was revoked by the state in which it occured. To limit the possibility of "slander" I will post no further details. I used this story to illustrate the fact that there is a decently large sample of medics who are grossly under/un educated and are clueless about medicine, yet think they are in fact "knowledgeable", a significant number of these also seem to suffer "the paragod complex" we are discussing here.

As someone who went to an extremely progressive medic school, and has spend several thousands of hours in the hospital up to this point, I think this takes abit of a chunk out of your statement of;

"This story, and the fact you expect us to believe it, really shows that exactly what paramedics have to go through to become certified is still very much a mystery to most lower level providers. You do not have pharmacology, pathophysiology, and anatomy and physiology pounded into your head and still think of the medications by color codes. "

In my program we were taught way beyond what most programs teach in your aforementioned post. As a matter of fact, I know a few schools around these parts who do "teach" using the method I mentioned as well as memorizing the protocols so they can "pass a test" Most medic classes here, teach verylittle about the subjects you mentioned. I know what the colors mean and I never use that terminology in my practice, although I do know a significant # of medics that do. So I guess I am abit more than an under educated BLS provider who has no clue about paramedic education... I also take serious offense to you questioning my integrity, and honesty when you neither know me, or anything about me. Also, I never made a personal attack against you! I think up to this point as an individual on this board...since it's inception, my posts speak for themselves. Feel free to apologize anytime!

You also can "see" what my paramedic class/program is like here. MHRI Program of Paramedicine As you will see we greatly exceed the national standards and are taught to the highest levels, perhaps even beyond those to which you may have been taught yourself!!

out here,

Ace844

Dustdevil · October 24, 2005

You also can "see" what my paramedic class/program is like here. MHRI Program of Paramedicine As you will see we greatly exceed the national standards and are taught to the highest levels, perhaps even beyond those to which you may have been taught yourself!!

You'd think that any program that exceptional would be accredited by CAAHEP, and/or CoAEMSP and CAHEA. They are not. Give the director a call and ask them why not. I'd be interested in hearing the answer you get. Incidentally, NO Mass or RI schools are accredited. Seems like they have a real lone wolf attitude up there as if what the rest of the profession is doing doesn't concern them.

Incidentally, in NYC, only Manhattan Community College and New York Methodist Hospital are accredited.

Anyhow, I'm afraid I have seen the whole box colour thing at it's worst. I've know patients who were killed by it. But I haven't seen or heard of that sort of thing since the 80's. I would hope that the entire profession has come way beyond that by now. But I also know that as long as we have cities using EMS as "busy work" for "them lazy overpaid firemen," then we are going to have people in the field, regardless of their education, who live and work by the Peter Principle.

Ace844 · October 24, 2005

You'd think that any program that exceptional would be accredited by CAAHEP, and/or CoAEMSP and CAHEA. They are not. Give the director a call and ask them why not. I'd be interested in hearing the answer you get. Incidentally, NO Mass or RI schools are accredited. Seems like they have a real lone wolf attitude up there as if what the rest of the profession is doing doesn't concern them.

Incidentally, in NYC, only Manhattan Community College and New York Methodist Hospital are accredited.

Anyhow, I'm afraid I have seen the whole box colour thing at it's worst. I've know patients who were killed by it. But I haven't seen or heard of that sort of thing since the 80's. I would hope that the entire profession has come way beyond that by now. But I also know that as long as we have cities using EMS as "busy work" for "them lazy overpaid firemen," then we are going to have people in the field, regardless of their education, who live and work by the Peter Principle.

I have been told that this accreditation is "pending" for this program. It is taught/run with insight/help very closely with the Brown school of medicine/residency programs. I will chaeck into this further to see what came of it. as for the rest of your post. I agree.

Ace844

Asysin2leads · October 25, 2005

Last time I checked it was the "PARAMEDICS" that were rewriting their scope of practice to be considered "PROFESSIONAL", most basics I have met whether paid or volunteer do it for the patient. Case in point, I was once told by a "PARAMEDIC" that I should become one to get hired by the local FD (that screams patient care profe$$ionalism)

That's because after two years of school, being treated like a real profession would be nice. But unfortuantely, we can't right now because of semi-literate yokels who get 120 hours of training, then sit around waiting for their pager to go off, jump in their personal vehicles and so they can tear assing through town to see the latest bloody wreck, then sit back on their laurels about how "they do it for the patient", looking down on the guys who actually spent the time to study, read, and go to rotation rather than sit around their squad room playing with their cravats and watching "Third Watch" reruns. Volunteers, 90% of them, do not do it for patient care, they do it so they can run red lights and feel like heroes with minimal training and supervision. The ones who really are interested in patient care have the desire to do more, and learn more, so they go to SCHOOL.

Not all Paramedics are "PARA-GODS" and not all Basics are patient driven (I have seen both drooling like puppies when the siren is turned on), but there are A LOT of paramedics who look down on basics, because they didn't go to school as long. No matter how long your schooling, some people are natural with people and others are just born A$$holes

I have been an advocate of having a good basic working with me. But it's attitudes like yours that make paramedics look down on basics. As for Ace, sorry, I don't apologize. If you don't want to be accused of being an undereducated BLS provider, than don't write posts that make you sound like one. If a paramedic in your area has really been through a course in your area, and has passed the certifying examinations, and is ok'd to work by the medical control physician, and still cannot identify the drugs administered to the patients save for the pretty colors on the boxes, or does not recognize the importance of giving a detailed and accurate report to the recieving staff, then that is one very, very messed up system and I am surprised that a medic of your caliber who went to such a progressive medic school would risk his integrity and reputation by working in it. And while you might want to try to thumb your nose at my program, the BMCC accredited AAS program, you're not going to succeed. Our class graduated 9 out of 40 people. All 9 passed both the NYS paramedic exam and practicals on their first try, and all 9 passed their REMAC NYC certification as well, all 9 of which now work in the field as paramedics. We worked under the doctors of the New York-Presbyterian system, learned along side the medical students from Cornell University, and our CIC was former deputy chief of EMS for New York City. That's why I say that with out a doubt, ym program graduated some damn fine medics who were trained at one of the highest standards in the country.

October 25, 2005

I have been an advocate of having a good basic working with me. But it's attitudes like yours that make paramedics look down on basics. As for Ace, sorry, I don't apologize. If you don't want to be accused of being an undereducated BLS provider, than don't write posts that make you sound like one. If a paramedic in your area has really been through a course in your area, and has passed the certifying examinations, and is ok'd to work by the medical control physician, and still cannot identify the drugs administered to the patients save for the pretty colors on the boxes, or does not recognize the importance of giving a detailed and accurate report to the recieving staff, then that is one very, very messed up system and I am surprised that a medic of your caliber who went to such a progressive medic school would risk his integrity and reputation by working in it. And while you might want to try to thumb your nose at my program, the BMCC accredited AAS program, you're not going to succeed. Our class graduated 9 out of 40 people. All 9 passed both the NYS paramedic exam and practicals on their first try, and all 9 passed their REMAC NYC certification as well, all 9 of which now work in the field as paramedics. We worked under the doctors of the New York-Presbyterian system, learned along side the medical students from Cornell University, and our CIC was former deputy chief of EMS for New York City. That's why I say that with out a doubt, ym program graduated some damn fine medics who were trained at one of the highest standards in the country.

No Asys it is paramedics LIKE YOU that give ALL of EMS a bad name.....I have yet to see a "PROFESSIONAL" job with an associates degree, so why would YOUR two years be professional? Nurses go 4, docs go up to 8, so a Paramedic goes 2 and should be bowed to? Oh yeah....fire science has 2 year 4 year 6 year and 8 year programs!! This opinion makes me get looked down upon???? Then you guys ARE professional!!!

A "yokel"?... nice terminoligy...did you get that in your twice a week for two years class? My point which you are obviously to "smart" to have picked up on is, I don't have to become a paramedic to get a job. A person should become a paramedic for the patient. JUST LIKE A FIREFIGHTER SHOULD BECOME A FIREFIGHTER TO HELP!! Now if any of this is tooooo hard to comprehend why don't you swing by and I will show you that firefighters can be well paid while helping people and not having to be a paramedic!

tinman694 · October 25, 2005

No Asissy it is paramedics LIKE YOU that give ALL of EMS a bad name.....I have yet to see a "PROFESSIONAL" job with an associates degree, so why would YOUR two years be professional? Nurses go 4, docs go up to 8, so a Paramedic goes 2 and should be bowed to? Oh yeah....fire science has 2 year 4 year 6 year and 8 year programs!! This opinion makes me get looked down upon???? Then you guys ARE professional!!!

Actually, you can become a registered nurse with a 2 year degree (Same amount of hours as Paramedic Associates Degree)

The Wife and I just finished Medic School-for fun no less!... she is going to Nursing school now to continue on in healthcare. We both already have bachelors degrees in professional disciplines--so will that make us Paragods??

In the 3 years we have been involved with the volunteer department here, we have encountered quite a few paragods--to include the ones who shove "lower" providers out of the way--and there are persons who are firemen (with ZERO training--not even FR) who think they know more than the ER Docs. They all make me furious at times--but my wife keeps reminding me that we are doing what we are doing to help other people--not to worry about some juvenile minded schmucks whose short sighted actions would not amount to a hill of beans. Their actions speak louder than words---they do not know what they are doing--and if you make enough to do about it, seemingly no one will question your all knowing status. Guess that is what education is supposed to teach you...How little you truly know.

October 25, 2005

Tinman, I know there is 2 year programs for RN, but some institutions no longer recognize this training when hiring, so I did not mention it.

I have absolutely no beef with Paramedics, I just wanted to make the point that you will find the attitudes everywhere, and if you want to be taken seriously as a "professional" you should not cast stones at others until you ACTUALLY are where you want to be!!! That is why I do not take the professional medic argument seriously, they have not even achieved their goal and are acting juvenile slamming on others!! Case in point is my being attacked by a "professional medic" when I simply stated my opinion!

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Paragod: Fact or Fiction?