Piping In or Checking Out; The Delicate Balance

[Jaymazing]

Jay, though I'm a big fan of you, this thread, and your participation, for me a huge part of EMS is respecting those that came before us, if they deserve it, and being grateful to our betters for taking the time and giving the attention to teach us. Both are categories that ArticKat fits into solidly where both you and I are concerned. His statement was prudent, despite you're being offended by it. I would be curious if, after rereading it, you are happy with the tone that your reply was created in? Being snippy and arrogant in the face of someone that's been a really important member of the City and EMS familes for a long time doesn't look good on you my friend....

Dwayne, you are absolutely correct, and I 100% agree that respect should be given to those who've earned it, and I never intended to take away any of that respect from Arctickat. I do still, however, feel that my comments were intended to defend my own credibility when it was brought into question, and while I don't feel that I crossed any lines in my statements, I do apologize for any disrespect that may very easily have been interpreted from my writing. My mood in my written communication can very easily be misconstrued, and that's my own fault. I hope I simply misconstrued the tone of his comment, as well. And I hope that Arctickat understands.

The point that I intended to make was that I have no intention of "screwing anybody around", but I also have not given any reason to question my credibility aside from being a stranger in a forum of strangers. Perhaps I was overly sensitive, though in my (probably biased) opinion, I feel I deserve the benefit of the doubt. I hope that this can be a forgiveable trait of mine, as I am working on improving it.

It could, and perhaps should be talked about. The problem is that, in the current model, there's just so little time. The training is so short, and basically inadequate, and there's so much material to cover that some things have to suffer. Unfortunately, as you've just seen, the provider is often left to work things out for themselves when they hit the road. I don't want to go on a rant about educational standards, as I think it will end up hijacking your thread.

.......

I like to hope that in EMS, we are slowly moving towards an environment where we can identify errors, and report them, without having as much fear of punitive action. Obviously poor providers need to be counselled and coached, but hopefully we can identify why errors were made, and see if there's anything we can do to prevent them from happening again.

EMS education would definitely be a whole new topic; and one that I would very much enjoy participating in! There's a lot of things I look forward to seeing as this industry grows and matures.

And I very much like the thoughts you've shared so far. Thanks

note: and thank you to everybody so far who's contributed. I've enjoyed this topic very much.

[Emergency Laughter]

Just a quick interjection here, someone stated, "to stroke his ego.." meaning the medic's. F**K his ego! Ego's kill people. The patient comes first.

As Dwayne noted, I've heard Trauma Surgeons say the same thing many, many times, "Can anyone think of anything we missed..."

Visualize the Space Shuttle exploding.

[scubanurse]

Jay... I'm going to let you in on something here. Everyone on this forum has been burned before by someone coming in and trying to get more info about how a call should have gone, for other purposes than learning. There are people out there, not in EMS, who come to the forum and pose as an EMT to gather information for a lawsuit, article, book, etc. It happens a lot on this site and the longer you are here, the more you will see it.

The way I saw the whole thread was there were inconsistencies in your wording that led some of us to think you were the EMT. If there's something that will get you shunned on this forum, it's lying. I have minimal doubt now that what you're saying is straight up and correct, but we've been in this position before, and people are cautious/skeptical. A healthy level of that is good when learning/reading things on the internet.

No need to get upset or angry over this . Great post, and I'm really looking forward to some of your posts in the future!

[Julian A]

F**K his ego! Ego's kill people. The patient comes first.

This is awesome, I feel like I need to write it down somewhere.

Edited December 27, 2012 by Julian A

[Arctickat]

Dwayne, you are absolutely correct, and I 100% agree that respect should be given to those who've earned it, and I never intended to take away any of that respect from Arctickat. I do still, however, feel that my comments were intended to defend my own credibility when it was brought into question,

And you defended yourself respectfully and admirably. Although your presentation left a few inconsistencies, you've addressed them to my satisfaction. Well done.

Just a quick interjection here, someone stated, "to stroke his ego.." meaning the medic's. F**K his ego! Ego's kill people.

That would be me, but you're not thinking in the same context as I am. We're supposed to be masters at manipulation, and what I'm getting at is to manipulate this medic into putting his brain into gear and think about what he did. Kinda like one time during flight training, I was supposed to land on 13 but was heading for the pattern to enter downwind 31. A simple brain fart, and my instructor had to ask me about which runway I wanted 3 times before my brain finally kicked in and I corrected my mistake.

This medic screwed up, I mean really...we don't even give Atropine for asystole anymore, but was it a one off that he would recognise, or was it pure incompetence that requires remedial training. Using a heavy handed confrontational approach after the fact solves nothing, but makes a poor work environment. Give the guy a chance to realise what he had done and correct his mistake first before screwing with his career. If he doesn't, then go up the food chain.

Edited December 27, 2012 by Arctickat

[DFIB]

I was on a run once, as a student, where ACLS protocol was dangerously not followed. When we got to the station the supervisor was waiting for us and gave the medic the right act over the mistake. The supervisor asked me what I had seen. I tried to play dumb by saying something like "I am just a Basic" I don't know all that ALS cardiac stuff. This approach did not fly. Although I was not held responsible it was made abundantly clear that I had failed in getting what was best for my patient. As a student there were no consecuences.

The supervisor might have been a little heavy handed but he got his point across. We work as a team so our patient can get the best care possible. The medic got in trouble and I learned a lesson. I am my patients advocate. Even if it puts me in "hinky" situations I would rather not be in.

[systemet]

The supervisor might have been a little heavy handed but he got his point across. We work as a team so our patient can get the best care possible. The medic got in trouble and I learned a lesson. I am my patients advocate. Even if it puts me in "hinky" situations I would rather not be in.

Wow. I'm trying to work out if I like the supervisor, because he obviously held you responsible and got the team concept across --- or if I don't like him because he was aggressive in making his point, and it sounds like he dressed the medic down in front of you, and vice versa.

I saw a post on one of my friend's facebook pages recently. This might be second nature to some of the management types out there, but he wrote "praise in public, correct/coach/counsell in private, otherwise you look like a ***". It resonated a little.

[Emergency Laughter]

That would be me, but you're not thinking in the same context as I am. We're supposed to be masters at manipulation, and what I'm getting at is to manipulate this medic into putting his brain into gear and think about what he did.

OK, I see what you mean. When you put it in the framework of stroking for a purposeful, manipulative end...then yea, work your magic, get the patient what they need!

Thank you Arctickat.

[DFIB]

Wow. I'm trying to work out if I like the supervisor, because he obviously held you responsible and got the team concept across --- or if I don't like him because he was aggressive in making his point, and it sounds like he dressed the medic down in front of you, and vice versa.

I saw a post on one of my friend's facebook pages recently. This might be second nature to some of the management types out there, but he wrote "praise in public, correct/coach/counsell in private, otherwise you look like a ***". It resonated a little.

I liked the supervisor quite a bit, he was a nice older gentleman that had been a medic longer than I have been alive, and "I ain't no spring chicken". He also ran a tight ship, reviewed every run himself and often showed up at the scene to help. I thought he turned the situation into a teaching moment he was also quite fair.

The medic wasn't happy that I was in the room and was irritated I didn't make a bigger effort to cover. I thought it went well. In fact I have integrated a "post-run" debriefing into my MO; What did we do well? What could we have done better? What did we screw the pooch on? . That sort of thing

[Just Plain Ruff]

DFIB, I am a true beleiver in the post mortem what did we do right and what did we do wrong reviews on most calls. Transfers usually didn't get them but most other calls did.

They are always informative and sometimes cause negative feelings but they always are learning sessions and ALWAYS Never accusatory in nature.

Good that you incorporate that type of thing into your practice of EMS. I just wish more people did that.

One of the last services I worked for had monthly M&M sessions that were mandatory for medics and STRONGLY suggested for EMTS. They were never a disciplinary session as that had already occurred prior to the M&M session if there was discipline.