chbare Posted March 20, 2013 Author Posted March 20, 2013 What about other religions however? Remember, other religions have their scholars and apologists and they too believe everybody else does not know what they are talking about.
ERDoc Posted March 20, 2013 Posted March 20, 2013 Yes, I have. The problem is that the apologists try to make the evidence fit the story and as such they make no sense. You build your story based on the evidence, which is where religion has built themselves into a corner. The bible is supposed to be the word of god and therefore cannot be wrong. The problem is, it is wrong which means it cannot be the word of god, so therefore we must skew the evidence to make it fit our beliefs.
Kaisu Posted March 20, 2013 Posted March 20, 2013 Other religions are other facets of the same diamond. Your honest and heart felt truth Doc are also facets. The analogy falls apart when we realize that the diamond is fixed, whereas God and his facets are dynamic and growing. We reach a conclusion and a fixed point of view because we are afraid. The stakes are high. To reach the truth requires abandoning a point of view and existing in a chasm of faith. This requires a trust in something unseen, not understood and unknowable. It is in this chasm that the Holy Spirit works. Scary stuff. That's why Christ said many are called but few are chosen and that the road is narrow.
chbare Posted March 20, 2013 Author Posted March 20, 2013 Going back to the original post: We have a young person experiencing a potential transition or perhaps a crisis. He/she is hearing all sorts of confusing things from all the biblical experts, apologists and so on, yet he/she cannot get past something profound. Religion simply cannot make any predictions about the world. He/she can turn on a Hydrogen lamp and use the prediction of modern quantum theory to perfectly predict the types of light emitted by the excited electrons in said discharge lamp. This test can be done anywhere and the results are always the same, never changing and can only be described by science. The fundamental questions of how things work are only being explained by certain ways of thinking and certain methods. Now, in reality, an instructor has to be real careful about engaging people in such discussion. It is not really my right to tell people how they should think about religion, but rather to teach the subject and present the evidence supporting current ideas and predictions and let people make up their own minds. However, when they begin to question their beliefs, I really cannot tell somebody how they should end up believing. Ultimately, I have to tell the truth as it is currently seen and let people make up their own minds. With that said, let's apply a bit of unreality with the knowledge that this is NOT what would really happen. What would you say to this person? How would you confront their questions?
Kaisu Posted March 20, 2013 Posted March 20, 2013 As in any crisis, I would have them employ HALT. If they are hungry, angry, lonely or tired, they need to deal with those things first. Then I would remind them that crisis means "turning point". It is a moment of danger but also great opportunity. I would then encourage the person to find a support system. If it can't be me, I would strongly suggest they find someone that will be willing to sit and listen - to accompany them on this journey - to help reframe things, present other points of view and offer encouragement and support. I would suggest they pray - not in the "our father who art in heaven" formulaic way, but in anyway they feel comfortable talking to the great unknown. Think, process, face, deal with and get through. And congratulate them. This crisis and difficulty is a gift. Take it and go with it. 1
chbare Posted March 20, 2013 Author Posted March 20, 2013 (edited) I appreciate the ongoing discussion. One big issue that remains is one of predictable, verifiable and testable evidence. I imagine it is difficult to tell somebody to believe in something that cannot be known. For if you cannot know something, how can you believe in it aside from taking it on faith without any proof other than a feeling that cannot in any way be quantified, especially when you are able to make profound and far reaching predictions using other ways of looking at the universe? I am not sure exactly what he was thinking, so I am having to extrapolate questions based on logic here. Edited March 20, 2013 by chbare
DwayneEMTP Posted March 21, 2013 Posted March 21, 2013 Doc - have you truly studied the bible in light of your own theological understanding? Have you compared beliefs? Have you read the Christian apologists? I respectfully submit that your study is incomplete and suggest that you don't know what you are talking about... It's a difficult study to keep an open mind and read the true evidence.. It also requires a spiritual willingness to understand. I don't pretend to know everything.. and I am a far from perfect teacher. Perhaps you should seek out people who truly do know what they are talking about. Christ said "seek and ye shall find" . In the infamous line of the "X files" the truth is out there. It's frustrating and sometimes difficult, but so worth the effort. Unfortunately Girl, your statement makes Mike's point as it's no different from the many, many Christians that we've all encountered, "I know the truth because I've studied and considered harder than you have. If you don't also see my truth then you have no idea what you're talking about." I'm sorry to see you present your point in such a way. I am of the opinion, not directed at any post(er) in this thread, that an intelligent person that will disallow urban legend and superstition can't read the bible with a scientific mind and not have to bend way too many things to make them fit. I'm kind of on board with Penn Jillette, "The easiest way to make an Athiest is to have them read the bible." I wanted to be a Christian in the worst way. Everyone I know is Christian, including having several preachers in my family. I really wanted to be part of that club. But I found no possible way for me to get there through the bible. And continuing my education made that even less possible. I too often feel that there is "something else" but can't really identify it. But for me there has become no question that it's not possible for it to be Christianity if the Bible is our only source of information for defining that. How to verify my 'something else?' I can't within a scientific context, but I've kind of lost the need to do so as my something seems more in line with the Buddhist phylosophy...it mostly focuses on myself, without a need to convert anyone, or judge anyone. As it harms no one I find no need to nail down the exact justifications for doing so. It seems like if I stay in a place of "good energy" that my life works pretty well, 'bad energy', less well, though of course there are a million more ways to explain why my life might work better while making decisions based on a positive attitude rather than a negative one. I've just sort of run out of steam at the half century mark for spending the rest of my life studying psychology and philosophy... :-) Man, what a great question and an amazing group of people to discuss it! Short anwer. I had doubts regarding my Christian upbringing prior to college level education, but found it impossible to continue within that belief system after being exposed to science based principles. 1
Kaisu Posted March 21, 2013 Posted March 21, 2013 Dwayne, as usual, you misunderstand. Dare I suggest that you are reading my post in light of your own defensive posture from being subjected to religious abuse by large members of a fundamentalist and narrow minded family. LOL.. I do presume. Doc's take on thing is just as valid for him as mine is for me. I don't know how you missed that. Perhaps you should reread the posts.... Love you forever
ERDoc Posted March 21, 2013 Posted March 21, 2013 But Kaisu, you are speaking in hyperbole and making the evidence fit the story. We reach a conclusion and a fixed point of view because we critically evaluate the evidence and make our decisions based on it. We shouldn't be taking our beliefs as rigid and then warping the evidence to fit those beliefs. By doing so, you are being the diamond. chbare, as to the student in the OP, I would answer any questions they have. I would not try to convert them one way or another but I would be open and honest with them in answering their questions. I would let them lead the path the questions take, just as I will when my younger children start to take this path.
Kaisu Posted March 21, 2013 Posted March 21, 2013 Doc Can you prove the existence of quarks and antimatter without a particle accelerator? Does that mean they didn't exist because we couldn't measure them? Or does our ability to find them bring them into being? You can dismiss my arguments (and I'm sure anyone with a modicum of logic and training can do that cause I'm not that bright) but you are missing the big picture. I have honestly looked at sections of the bible that appear to contradict themselves and see there is no contradiction whatsoever. Let me give you the example of the "sin" of Onanism or spilling your seed upon the ground. Considered sinful by the idiots was the act of coitus interruptus, which led injuctions about masturbation, etc. Closely tied to this is the God's Law that stated a man was obligated to marry his brother's widow if she was childless. In this day of might equals right, a childless widow was doomed to poverty and death by starvation in her old age. Onan did not want to create competitors for his own heirs, thus he fulfilled the letter of the law, and had the pleasure of screwing his sister in law, without fullfilling the spirit of the law which required him to selflessly provide for his sister-in-laws well being socially and financially. God's law has nothing to do with marrying your brother's widow or coitus interruptis. It has everything to do with looking after the weak and helpless, even at the cost of your own treasury, As you can see, context takes a confusing and "stupid" regulation and transforms it into something liberating and meaningful. I believe this is the same for every story in the Bible, and it is only my blindness, sloth and lack of knowledge that prevents me from understanding it - something I can rectify anytime I want to devote the time to true study and understanding.
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