Searching Patients personal belongings

[NYCMedical]

In light of the recent incident in Boston, are personnel justified in searching a patient's belongings. Scenario: EMS crew responds to a "street job" and the patient has a large backpack. The EMS crew could unintentionally escort a potential IED into a hospital behind normal hospital security procedures. Granted, after 19 years I'm no longer a field medic, but as I remember things NYPD does not respond to street sick calls in a timely fashion. In addition, EMS Crews don't routinely search patients belongings. Is this a valid concern?

[Just Plain Ruff]

Yes it is, but time is limited in my response so all I'll say is this, I used to search bags of patients any way for weapons or items that could harm me. The only patients who really got upset were the ones who did in fact intend to harm me or the ones who had other items in their bags that they did not want discovered. think drugs or long cylindrical objects that vibrate.

95% of the other patients had no issues with me taking a quick look.

But on the flip side, Do you trust yourself with searching a bag that might have a switch that would detonate when you unzipped a bag or opened a bag. I mean the guy might be intending harm on the first person who opens the bag so might "leaving it alone" be better in these instances? If you suspect something HINKY going on, then why not call in the experts to take a look.

[scubanurse]

If you think it's suspicious, call it in to PD and have them investigate. If the patient is stable enough, wait on scene until PD is there and then leave the bag with them while you haul butt away from there and take the patient to the appropriate facility.

[Chief1C]

In the case where the call is for someone who has attempted, or wants to harm themselves; either our crew, or PD search them and their belongings. Founds knives and such, never any firearms, which is odd..since most rural folks carry firearms, or own them. One thing I do not permit, is the patient having access to the bag during transport. I tell them we can't have any loose objects, in case of a crash, and secure it in a compartment. To be perfectly honest, I've never considered if someone had a bomb. Under normal circumstances, who would? Yanno, except the miliary on active duty. I have learned not to trust anyone, and have a tactic to subdue stretchered patients who pose a life threat to the crew or myself.

I have had a patient cause harm to themselves while belted down, no weapons needed. The patient BIT through several veins, spraying everyone and everything with blood. Pumped up the BP cuff till we had the pt. tied down so as to permit treatment. Then called OMC for permission to use restraints...and PD to file assault charges. Spraying someone with blood, intentionally, spitting, et al; is assault. Also been assaulted by objects, fists, sputum, etc. Had a very large knife pulled. But IED's, or bombs, no. There was a call in the area for an IED planted to keep trespassers away, that was struck by a tractor. Its a possibility, anywhere. They're too easy to construct. All I can tell my people is to be less trusting and more vigilant, and hope they use their instincts to sway them from harm.

Please excuse any errors. I'm not at the top of my game. B.R.A.T. Diet.

[ERDoc]

At what point do we stop searching them though? Are we going to start having them remove their shoes before allowing them into the ER? Underwear checks for everyone? I'll pass as there are some I don't even want to think about what may be contained in there and I'm not talking about bombs. Obviously, if something sets off your spidey senses, act on it.

[Mateo_1387]

Rights versus safety. How many rights are we willing to give up in the name of safety? (TSA anyone?)

If you want to search my bag, I'm going to flat out tell you no. You do not have the authority to search my bag unless you are holding a badge and a search warrant. Searching bags is not our place. If you are concerned about bombs, guns, knives, etc... then ask them to leave the bag. Otherwise, call law.

[island emt]

Rights versus safety. How many rights are we willing to give up in the name of safety? (TSA anyone?)

If you want to search my bag, I'm going to flat out tell you no. You do not have the authority to search my bag unless you are holding a badge and a search warrant. Searching bags is not our place. If you are concerned about bombs, guns, knives, etc... then ask them to leave the bag. Otherwise, call law.

Thats easy: your bag stays right where it is and your on the way to the hospital without it, or you can refuse treatment & transport and we will complete a refusal against our advice.

I'm not risking my life or the life of my crew for anything. you called 911 for our assistance. You play by our rules or no bus ticket !

I have found handguns & knives while doing a "Trauma search" head to toe assessment. Little old lady with a ladysmith tucked in the pocket of her bathrobe, loaded and ready to fire. It was removed and handed over to a deputy at the hospital.

[MikeEMT]

In light of the recent incident in Boston, are personnel justified in searching a patient's belongings. Scenario: EMS crew responds to a "street job" and the patient has a large backpack. The EMS crew could unintentionally escort a potential IED into a hospital behind normal hospital security procedures. Granted, after 19 years I'm no longer a field medic, but as I remember things NYPD does not respond to street sick calls in a timely fashion. In addition, EMS Crews don't routinely search patients belongings. Is this a valid concern?

I don't worry about it. Whats the point of worrying? If you worry they win. If you have any reason to be suspicious then do so, but being wary of every patient isn't going to accomplish anything, will lead to you becoming complacent. This is similar to our use of field oxygen. We teach students that every patient gets oxygen, whether they need it or not. We should be teaching them to look for the clinical signs that warrant its us.

The same thinking can be applied it provider safety. Instead of being suspicious of everyone we need to start teaching to recognize the "symptoms" of someone likely to cause us harm. I transport patient belongings all the time and have never been nervous.

Actions, words, clothing, markings, and surroundings will help determine if I should be nervous. We were given 5 senses for a reason, we need to know how to use all 5.

Bottom line, if your "gut feeling" says something isn't right then listen.

[rat115]

Here, we're a rural enough area that we normally have PD on calls with us. The dispatcher will do everything possible to get a PD, SO or HP with us for calls on the highway or about Greyhound. (We get a good percentage of our calls off of Greyhound.) In those cases, we have the LEO search the bags that are questionable. We've had our PD offer to help by staying behind with the bus to bring bags from Greyhound so we could transport the pt faster. In those cases, the PD states that he can not leave the bag in the ED without making sure that there are no weapons in it. It takes it out of our hands.

I've rarely been worried about weapons, but I'd be more than willing to ask someone if I were and go off of their reaction. I also make sure that their bag is out of reach during transport by putting it down in the doorwell for the side door. They can see that I'm no where near it and they can't get to it either.

[Just Plain Ruff]

I have a little more time to clarify my response. I never searched every bag. I searched the ones that I felt were a danger and only the ones that the patient would not allow me to store in a place away from the patient so they could not get to it.

If my sixth sense (and it's rarely wrong) was fired, then I would have law enforcement search the bag rather than me and if the patient refused to allow a search, they either didn't go with me because they refused to go to the hospital without the bag or they went to the hospital without the bag. Simple as that. My ambulance, MY RULES period.

But truly, i never searched every bag and for points of brevity I re-read my response and I may have made it seem like I did.

Now that I work in a travel related field and fly every week, you have to let the TSA search your bags, like it or not, if they want to they search and if you don't like it your bag either doesn't fly or you don't fly. Simple as that so we still have the ultimate ability to refuse a search but you aint getting to where you want to go. And I've seen people refuse a bag search and were not let on a plane who were searched anyway due to their suspicious nature to begin with.

Like the TSA or not, I honestly think that they are getting a bum rap with all the videos that are going around. I've seen thousands of passengers go through TSA check lines and 99.9 percent of those passengers went through without issues. It's the one or two videos that make it to Youtube that give them a bad name. Sort of like the 1 or two assholes who give EMS a bad name. Think about it, most TSA agents are working with what they are giving by the HSA and they dont' have a choice in what they do. It's the one bad apple similar to the one bad EMS apple that spoils the bunch.