In need of some EMS family advice.

[Just Plain Ruff]

No this is about the unions, it was the unions that were out there making the statements. These were the union reps that were making the statements not the firefighters.

Bushy I know all those involved who were making statements on this particular issues and they all were in the top 3 levels of the Union. All were shown on the news as Union reps and not fire fighters.

Listen, I don't want anyone to lose their jobs, but the people making the most noise were representing themselves as representatives of the local fire department union and not as firefighters.

If they had come out and said "we firefighters don't want to lose our jobs" I'd have been all for their plight but these were union reps coming out on the news saying that their members were going to lose their jobs, that citizens were going to "DIE" and that was unacceptable.

[BushyFromOz]

The industrial body representing firefighter made those statements? The whole point of a unions is to represent and if need be publicly state the wishes of thir fee paying membership. Its entirely appropriate for them to make these statatements, provided it is on behalf of their membership.

[Just Plain Ruff]

I talked to my city council friend for the city in question, this is what he told me since we have moved and I didn't have the entire full info since we moved.

After we moved, the proposed cuts ended up happening to the fire department anyway. There have been no increased deaths in the city due to the cuts, there have no increased houses burning down and no ones safety were in jeopardy. Response times did not suffer.

So the horror stories that the union told the citizens would happen to them were outright lies. That's the type of dishonesty that I find distasteful.

Bushy, I know the guys who work at the fire department. They are ALL good guys. They were worried for their co-workers jobs. They said they would do anything to keep from having their co-workers jobs cut. I see where they are coming from. No-one wants to lose their jobs but to use these types of scare tactics such as "your loved ones will die" or your house will burn down is beyond the pale.

That's the main thing I had a problem with at this particular fire department.

[triemal04]

And what city councils and state government do is dishonest too.

No point bringing a cupcake to a gunfight.

Are you sure this about unions, or is this about firefighters?

Yes, and yes. In the US in many, many places unions are viewed as being on the same level that many people on forums like these see firefighters as being on.

I talked to my city council friend for the city in question, this is what he told me since we have moved and I didn't have the entire full info since we moved.

So...you don't have all (or even most probably) of the info...and you are basing what you know off of someone in the...city council? The people that control the purse strings? Huh...interesting...

After we moved, the proposed cuts ended up happening to the fire department anyway. There have been no increased deaths in the city due to the cuts, there have no increased houses burning down and no ones safety were in jeopardy. Response times did not suffer.

And here I thought you had said that the FD's budget was increased...not to be rude, but get your facts straight before you start complaining.

I would have thought that someone in EMS, even tangentially, would know enough to know that a lack of problems, especially with firefighting, as with EMS, police, medicine, an the like, does not mean that everything is actually "good." Just because nobody is having problems and nobody from the public OR the FD is getting hurt does not mean that everything is being done safely. If all you think about when deciding if things are "good" in a department is the glitzy easy to see stuff then it's another example of willful ignorance.

I'd have hoped somebody in EMS would have more sence than that.

Well you can take issue with me all you want but I watched it happen in the city of Belton Missouri just in the past 8 months. The city was trimming the budget. They had to cut across the board.

The city said it had to cut 6 fire positions. The fire department union came out swinging saying that there would be lives lost if those positions would be cut. They didn't tell the public that three of the positions were already open positions and that two others were slated for retirement. So 5 of those positions were actually not going to be filled anyway but the union didn't say that, but they let the public think that lives would be lost and the public made an outcry so the fire department did not lose positions, in fact their budget was increased due to outcry from the citizens thinking that lives would be lost and other city departments were cut further in order to SAVE the fire department, including the police department.

Uh-huh. So couple questions. What is the staffing on the Belton FD? How many engines? How many trucks? How many line command staff? How many people on each rig? How many calls do they run? Type of call? What are the cities buildings like? Whats the industrial/manufacturing base in Belton like? What's the residential building like? Population density? How many ancillary positions does Belton FD have, or not have? What are the total responsibilities of the FD? What are they FF's required to be doing on a daily basis? What is the salary like? Benefits? Retirement? Are the unfilled positions being staffed with overtime or left open? If staffed with OT, is it cheaper to do that, or to hire more people? How long would the 3 open spots stay that way? Would the retirees spots be filled? How is the rest of their budget? Is their equipment up to par? Stations? Vehicles? Do they have proper funding for training? Maintenance? Vehicle replacement fund? Equipment replacement? General fund? Did you know that there is a difference between the people who run a fire department and the people in a firefighters union?

If you can't answer each one of those questions, plus a lot more that I'm sure I have left out, then you don't have enough information to make a real decision.

I hate to tell you, but in city/county/govt agencies, or most large companies, there is a big difference between having a position left open (often to save money or because there is no money) and having a position eliminated. Left open means that, at some point in the future when funds are available, you can rehire someone for that spot. Eliminated means, even if the money is available, you can't, because the job no longer exists, and even if money did become available for all city agencies, it would not be going to the fire department as they didn't have a spot that needed money. It's very common for a spot to be left open for awhile (sometimes years) so that the money can be moved from the personell budget to something else (often times to a budget of another city/county agency). But that isn't the same as cutting one.

Obviously you also have never dealt with budget issues or even listened to someone who has. Budgets are generally reviewed and renewed annually. The problem with cutting one is that, while it may be possible to scrape by for awhile, once a budget goes down it's hard to get it to go back up, and to often a reduction that doesn't cause immediate problems is seen as "well obviously you didn't need that money." This ignores the blatantly obvious fact that problems may take awhile to appear, but that doesn't mean everything is ok, and that just because people can do more with less doesn't mean they should need to.

People need to quit having knee-jerk reactions just because they don't like a certain group.

Listen, there is no way that any of us here who don't agree with what the unions stand for will change the minds of the union supporters and there is no way that the union supporters will change the minds of those who do not support the tactics of the unions. It's a no win situation.

You're right. You can't argue with willful ignorance.

Edited June 14, 2013 by triemal04

[Just Plain Ruff]

True I don't have all the facts but I do have enough to know that when one of the union leadership tells me that they will say anything and everything to keep the cuts from happening that is enough for me to know that they will go to any level to keep it from happening. and my argument with what was said on the news by the union reps is NOT knee jerk but a reaction borne out of their saying that if positions are cut that people will die and houses will burn, none of which has come about with those positions having been cut. As a matter of fact, I don't think that many houses have caught on fire in the city of Belton since the positions have been cut. Maybe one or two house fires but the city of Belton has maybe 5-7 house fires in a single year anyway so having 2 fires in 4 months since the cuts is really not a increase in fires.

I know this information because my home used to be in Raymore MO which is the town directly to the east of Belton. I went to church with at least 6 Belton fire fighters and 4 Belton Police officers as well as several county deputies. There are more house fires in the city I lived in than in the city of Belton. So I definately know the amount of Fire responses that Belton runs. Plus they publish the fire department responses in the local small newspaper. Car wrecks, medical calls and transfers outnumber fire calls maybe 30 to 1 if not more. There are two fire stations, 4 pumpers, 2 ladder trucks, 3 ambulances, 3 reserve units. Normal component of crew on each unit. There are also a chief on each shift for each station. I don't know about line command staff.

I don't know what the daily duties for the firefighters are.

If you want me to, I will call my council friend back and ask if the positions were eliminated or if they were left open but unfilled. He said eliminated but we didn't get into semantics. Maybe they were left unfilled. There is a difference correct there is.

And I would think that my friend who is on the city council knows a hell of a lot more about the budgetary issues than I do so I took his word for it. My bad, I guess someone who has the city info in his hands would know but what the hell do I know.

You see, Triemal and BushyfromOz, being that you are union and you support the unions there is no arguing with you.

Sure I don't have every single fact, and I'm not going to have every single fact but i have enough facts to know that what was done by the union leadership was in my opinion dishonest. There were others in my circle of friends who also are in the union, albeit not in the union in this particular fire department who also felt that the way this was done was dishonest but others who felt it was completely the way to go.

If you are saying I don't like firefighters, that's an incorrect statement, but I just don't like the unions.

So the comment about willful ignorance is also incorrect. I know more than you think. What else do you want me to tell you or find out.

[BushyFromOz]

You see, Triemal and BushyfromOz, being that you are union and you support the unions there is no arguing with you.

Mate you are completely missing my point

A union is an Industrial body that exists for the sole purpose of respresenting the views of its members. Its members in this case are fiefighters

Anything the UNION states is a representation of the will of its membership, therefore the statement of the union are the statements of its constituents, they are one and the same

And for the life of me i cannot understand your issue with the "reduced services risking lives" argument. Just because no one has died as a result, does not mean the risk is not real. Organisations trot this line out all the time and we dont see you exploding in here about how low brow that tactic is.

No, i have reasonable and educated opinion on the topic of unions and unionism, the only one whose opinion who is blinded is yours.

Edited June 15, 2013 by BushyFromOz

[Just Plain Ruff]

Mate you are completely missing my point

A union is an Industrial body that exists for the sole purpose of respresenting the views of its members. Its members in this case are fiefighters

Anything the UNION states is a representation of the will of its membership, therefore the statement of the union are the statements of its constituents, they are one and the same

And for the life of me i cannot understand your issue with the "reduced services risking lives" argument. Just because no one has died as a result, does not mean the risk is not real. Organisations trot this line out all the time and we dont see you exploding in here about how low brow that tactic is.

No, i have reasonable and educated opinion on the topic of unions and unionism, the only one whose opinion who is blinded is yours.

I guess maybe the reason why I was so put off by the statements was that one of the leadership of the union for this fire department told me directly that they were going to say anything and everything they could in order to keep from having those cuts go through.

I guess I'm just kicking myself in the ass trying to explain it any better. I guess I didn't do as good a job as I thought I did. I'll stop trying to explain what I'm trying to say.

But again, I have NOTHING against firefighters, let's make that perfectly clear.