Fourth Amendment Protections...

[chbare]

Chris: If you call your wife on a cell phone & want to have private discussions , It's not happening. Any kid with an old scanner can listen to you at will.

Yes there are supposed to be laws against doing so, but who is going to enforce them?

People have been led to believe in the tooth fairy and privacy for decades.

Neither is true

One thing to believe is true::: BIG BROTHER is watching and has been doing so for a very long time.

why do you think there are GPS chips in cell phones ??????

Any kid with with an effective enough foot can kick in my door and break into my house, but that does not make it right.

Phones have GPS radios for many reasons. Communication is sophisticated business and there is still an expectation of privacy.

Additionally, isn't this conversation about "big brother" watching us? I do not think we denying that fact, but rather discussing how far this watching should be taken. Again, if government drops the ball on things such as taxes and guns (IRS Scandal & Fast & Furious), can it be trusted to have access to our personal conversations, even if they swear they are only using meta data?

Just like the gun control debates, this situation has opened up important discussions about where our country should and will go. Simply admitting that "big brother" watches us and going on with our lives is one action, but is it not important to pursue additional dialogue and really attempt to come to terms with where this could lead? I have not yet talked about constitutional law, but clearly past court decisions will play an important role as well as subsequent decisions. The ACLU has already filed suit and how things go should be of great interest to people who are not completely apathetic.

[Just Plain Ruff]

This statement from the NSA should scare the HELL out of us. I got this from a newsletter that I subscribe to. I'll post the entire newsletter if you want me to but this is the salient point.

The NSA's Alexander doubled-down on data collection. Under fire for collecting millions of Americans' phone records and Internet data, Army Gen. Keith Alexander said yesterday that he wants the feds to snag even more data - and then distribute it more widely throughout government. FP's John Reed reports that at the hearing yesterday at the Senate Appropriations Committee, Alexander claimed that the intel collected by the NSA has potentially foiled "dozens of terrorist events," without being specific. "It was all part of a Capitol Hill hearing that saw the four-star general pledging more transparency -- yet deferring many details on the matter to a classified session" today, Reed writes. Alexander to Vermont Sen. Patrick Leahy: "The reason I want to get this exactly right, Senator, is I want the American people to know that we're being transparent in here."

[ERDoc]

The govt has no right to listen to our conversations or take our information without proper legal channels. Unfortunately it take govt and law years to keep up with technology. Hell, we can't even decide what is porn and what's not. Just because they CAN do something doesn't mean they SHOULD be doing something. I'm all for national security but not to the point that it invades our privacy. It is one thing being recorded out in public by the millions of cameras that are out there but it is another thing to record my private conversations. Once we let the govt start doing that then the terrorists have won.

[paramedicmike]

I've yet to see an argument justifying the NSA searches. I've yet to see an argument regarding the lack of application of Fourth Amendment protections as they apply, or apparently don't apply, to this particular case. Admitted, with my new job my reading has not been what I would like it to be. So it's possible I just may have missed it.

Part of what's complicating this is the involvement of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) court proceedings. Actions taken by this court are secret. Arguments presented are secret. Anyone affected by warrants issued by the court (in recent cases Verizon as an example) can't talk about it. I'm not entirely sure I understand the need for the court given that warrants are issued all the time.

What I think bothers me most about recent events (second only to the events themselves) is that people just don't seem bothered by this. Have we reached the point that we're willing to hand over Constitutionally protected rights without so much as a batted eyelash?

[island emt]

I'm not saying I agree with all thats being done by any chance of the imagination.

Just a realist that has seen from the semi inside what has been done in the past and I'm sure is being done today.

But from my time in the Navy and being stationed at a few different "communications sites" around the world, out government has been doing ELINT for many decades.

Like it or not thats the truth. Cell phone & the internet were not even dreamed of when this intelligence gathering was started.

Whether it was reading the old AT&T longlines microwave transmissions or listening to a foreign governments military and govt communications from a underground facility in a third world african nations desert, or downloading data from KH-11 satellites in the West australian coast, it has been done for a very long time.

[Just Plain Ruff]

I'm not saying I agree with all thats being done by any chance of the imagination.

Just a realist that has seen from the semi inside what has been done in the past and I'm sure is being done today.

But from my time in the Navy and being stationed at a few different "communications sites" around the world, out government has been doing ELINT for many decades.

Like it or not thats the truth. Cell phone & the internet were not even dreamed of when this intelligence gathering was started.

Whether it was reading the old AT&T longlines microwave transmissions or listening to a foreign governments military and govt communications from a underground facility in a third world african nations desert, or downloading data from KH-11 satellites in the West australian coast, it has been done for a very long time.

That's true Island but are you saying that just because it's been done for a very very long time is what makes it right and ok to continue to do?

That's like saying, we've used bretyllium on cardiac arrest for a very very long time so let's keep doing it even though we know the evidence against it is so huge.

Or CPR on a Stiff as a board dead guy even though way back in the day we did it any way, we should still be doing it because, well that's the way we've done it in the past so it's ok to do it still.

I'm sorry I'm don't go for that argument.

I don't go for the let's throw a blanket warrant over all of verizon's and more than likely all of Sprints, T-mobiles and At&T's customers phone calls just on the off chance that we might, just might catch a terrorist or two.

This surveillance obviously didn't catch the Boston bombers but that's another thread.

I just don't trust the government to have all this information and keep it within the bounds and walls of what they are supposed to keep it. If you read my quote from a newsletter I subscribe to and you read what the NSA chief said that he wants to do with even more data they want to collect, they want to disseminate it to even more government agencies. That should scare each and every one of us into demanding more accountability of who actually has the information.

Hell the government cannot even track who has top secret clearance. I'll bet they don't remember that I have a Secret level clearance which I received when I worked on a IT project in Washington State. I was told that it never expires and it's attached to my Social Security number or something like that. I wouldn't know how to check if it's still valid or not but it would be interesting to see if they come to verify if I'm still using it or not after this NSA Scandal. I would just as soon give it up as I don't need it anymore.

[paramedicmike]

Let's not confuse spying with domestic criminal investigations. They are two completely different activities.

[island emt]

Ruff What I'm saying is: This is not something new that has just started under this administration as some of the windbags and tinfoil hat crowd would like us to believe.

They have just found out that what has been going on for decades is really true or purported to be true. They have just gotten their panties in a bunch because of a law breaking whistle blower who was a high school dropout talking about things he was privy to.

The issues of constitutional rights are only important to the talk show crowd when it suits them to whine about it on the radio.

I have a respect for intelligence gathering and have seen the effects it has made whether we're talking about tracking drug boats or smugglers / human traffickers in the gulf or on the Canadian border , or tracking terrorists cells phone calls or internet traffic. . No they don't catch 100% of them , but I think the numbers they do catch would surprise all of us.

It really is a Catch 22 situation:

If the government wasn't doing this and incidents of terrorism were as common in this country as it is in other countries, then we would be in an uproar because they allowed it to happen. Finding the balance between complete freedom and the security to live free and safe and travel anywhere you want to, and living in Iran, or afghanistan or many other third world shit hole, where you are told what you will do or be killed.

Do you want to be a mindless sheep or have the liberties of we have?

[Just Plain Ruff]

I agree, there is a place for the intelligence gathering. I also agree that they have been doing this for a long time. Heck Bush started this particular surveillance in 1996. Obama just extended it and made it broader if I read things right.

I am actually somewhat ok with the surveillance because it's metadata but I'm afraid of what they might do with it if someone gets a hold of it and uses it wrongly. Sometimes you have to have some modicum of faith that those who have the data and the access to the info really do have the best interest of the data and the public interest and are truly using the info the way the warrant and the court set it out to be used and they don't go rogue and use it to go on their own agenda like Hoover did in his days.

What I think has happened in the past couple of months is that the number of these types of operations or scandals that has hit the Obama administration at the same time, the IRS scandal, the NSA, the EPA, the Justice departments Fast and Furious and the targeting of the AP reporters and then Benghazi have hit Obama and his administration with such a earthquake style assault that it has to many put a huge crack in the can this administration be trusted that many americans are really doubting this administration.

Couple that with the conservative talk show hosts out there that are fueling the fire, the facebook posts by all the conservatives who are hitting these scandals fully and this is where we are at.

You also have a president who really hasn't addressed these problems in a truly meaningful way that I think would allay the concerns of most of the American people, all that I see are generic talking points and a president who allows one question ONLY when he allows questions at all.

Edited June 14, 2013 by Captain ToHellWithItAll

[Richard B the EMT]

Historical mentions:

Due to monitoring of Japanese communications, we knew in advance Pearl Harbor was going to be attacked, but only had the military go to a higher alert status instead of a flat out "At War" status, as we didn't want the Japanese to know we had broken some of their codes.

We then disseminated incorrect information about some potentially critical things at military bases, like a busted water purification unit at Midway. When Japanese messages were decoded, and they mentioned the busted water purification unit, we then went all out in what would be referred to, as the Battle of Midway.

In 1968, North Korea got back at the US Navy for Electronic Intelligence Gathering, albeit possibly in an internationally illegal way, when they attacked, boarded, and seized the vessel "Pueblo", in international waters, and held her crew for several months. While they didn't execute the crew, they did accuse them, and the US, publicly, for spying.