Conceal Carry Issues

[shrevo23]

As Illinois finally joins all the other states in enacting conceal carry laws....was wondering about the possible issues we might encounter here in the land of Lincoln. It's my understanding that hospitals will still be off limits for weapons, so what are we to do if the patient has a weapon. Note this would be in reference to a law abiding citizen who is not a threat.

[scubanurse]

http://www.emtcity.com/topic/21024-grandpa-has-a-gun/?hl=concealed

http://www.emtcity.com/topic/19942-patients-guns-and-ems/?hl=concealed

[Chief1C]

They do not go in the ambo. Ones right to bear arms ends where my safety becomes a top priority. Cops can take it, or leave it with their vehicle, home, etc. Put it in the custody of another responder, FD, etc., until an LEO arrives, as to not delay transport. We have this all the time. Won't take a gun. We'll drop your dog off somewhere, but not your gun.

[croaker260]

• OK, my comments:

  1- This only becomes a big deal if we make it a big deal. As I live/work in Idaho, we encounter this a fair amount and ITS NOT A BIG DEAL.

  2- Most CCL/CCW owners are very mindful and knowledgeable of the law, public safety, and are very sensitive to discrimination and constitutional issues. …often many times more so than the average EMS provider. So, trying to be badge heavy no-it all will not work out to a good patient rapport.

  3- Exactly what you do will depend on your location. In a very rural area (like most of Idaho) waiting for LEO is not practical. so, when possible , I like to express alternatives.

  Possible acceptable solutions:

  • If there is a sober adult with the patient, then they can take charge of the weapon.
  • if there is not a sober adult present, and you feel comfortable, render the weapon safe (open the bolt/slide, remove the mag, engage the safety, etc). If you dont feel comfortable, it is perfectly acceptable to have the patient (assuming he is sober and cooperative) render the weapon safe for you. I usually do this when he is removing it. from his person.
  • A third option is to lock it up in the vehicle or in the house. I am a little reluctant on this only if it is not secured in something that LOCKS, like a gun safe or similar device. I would rather give it to a person. But that just me. I have done both with no problems.
  • Finally, if you have no other options, you can render it safe and transport it in an outside compartment or (as in our case) in your narc box (ours is also a gun vault.). This is what I usually have to do If I discover a weapon during transport (, knife, pistol, bible, whatever) anyway
  • When possible I store it in the holster (assuming there is one..most legit gun owners carry in some kind of holster) both for protection of the finish and/or an added layer of safety.

  What I do not do:

  • Give the weapon to a juvenile, a non-sober friend, or leave it unsecured on the scene.
  • Transport a weapon that isa not rendered safe.
  • Allow the patient to keep the weapon physically on him. I am polite, and I explain the alternatives, and I let the patient make a choice. One of the "choices" he can make is to go to the hospital by other means. I have not had anyone chose another option.
  • I never leave a weapon where it ay be easily accessed by a minor or a child. In that case, and if the patient has no other alternatives, then I call LEO to secure the weapon. I have only had this happen once. Dad was having a serious medical emergency and his 14 year old son was in the house. Fortunately we in suburbia so LEO arrived quickly and was very understanding.

• One final comment: Obviously having an LEO seems to be the best solution, but over the past several years the increasing gustopo nature of the anti-gun crowd and unjust ways some restrictive gun laws have been enforced would make many normally docile gun owners become very upset. Without getting into politics , look at the criminilazation of gun owners on Colorado and New York just over magazine size. At the stroke of midnight previously law abiding citizens were made criminals, and many more are afraid of the same thing happening to them. This has made many law abiding well intentioned gun owners very distrustful. No one wants to have a medical emergency and suddenly end up in legal trouble.

• Letting the gun owner you are respectful and supportive of his rights, and looking to find alternatives with the LEO being the last option, is IMHO a good aproach.

Edited July 23, 2013 by croaker260

[ERDoc]

• OK, my comments:

  1- This only becomes a big deal if we make it a big deal. As I live/work in Idaho, we encounter this a fair amount and ITS NOT A BIG DEAL.

  2- Most CCL/CCW owners are very mindful and knowledgeable of the law, public safety, and are very sensitive to discrimination and constitutional issues. …often many times more so than the average EMS provider. So, trying to be badge heavy no-it all will not work out to a good patient rapport.

  3- Exactly what you do will depend on your location. In a very rural area (like most of Idaho) waiting for LEO is not practical. so, when possible , I like to express alternatives.

  Possible acceptable solutions:

  • If there is a sober adult with the patient, then they can take charge of the weapon.
  • if there is not a sober adult present, and you feel comfortable, render the weapon safe (open the bolt/slide, remove the mag, engage the safety, etc). If you dont feel comfortable, it is perfectly acceptable to have the patient (assuming he is sober and cooperative) render the weapon safe for you. I usually do this when he is removing it. from his person.
  • A third option is to lock it up in the vehicle or in the house. I am a little reluctant on this only if it is not secured in something that LOCKS, like a gun safe or similar device. I would rather give it to a person. But that just me. I have done both with no problems.
  • Finally, if you have no other options, you can render it safe and transport it in an outside compartment or (as in our case) in your narc box (ours is also a gun vault.). This is what I usually have to do If I discover a weapon during transport (, knife, pistol, bible, whatever) anyway
  • When possible I store it in the holster (assuming there is one..most legit gun owners carry in some kind of holster) both for protection of the finish and/or an added layer of safety.

  What I do not do:

  • Give the weapon to a juvenile, a non-sober friend, or leave it unsecured on the scene.
  • Transport a weapon that isa not rendered safe.
  • Allow the patient to keep the weapon physically on him. I am polite, and I explain the alternatives, and I let the patient make a choice. One of the "choices" he can make is to go to the hospital by other means. I have not had anyone chose another option.
  • I never leave a weapon where it ay be easily accessed by a minor or a child. In that case, and if the patient has no other alternatives, then I call LEO to secure the weapon. I have only had this happen once. Dad was having a serious medical emergency and his 14 year old son was in the house. Fortunately we in suburbia so LEO arrived quickly and was very understanding.

• One final comment: Obviously having an LEO seems to be the best solution, but over the past several years the increasing gustopo nature of the anti-gun crowd and unjust ways some restrictive gun laws have been enforced would make many normally docile gun owners become very upset. Without getting into politics , look at the criminilazation of gun owners on Colorado and New York just over magazine size. At the stroke of midnight previously law abiding citizens were made criminals, and many more are afraid of the same thing happening to them. This has made many law abiding well intentioned gun owners very distrustful. No one wants to have a medical emergency and suddenly end up in legal trouble.

• Letting the gun owner you are respectful and supportive of his rights, and looking to find alternatives with the LEO being the last option, is IMHO a good aproach.

I agree that anyone we care for should be treated with respect (unless they have given us a reason not too). As you say, most legitimate gun owners are reasonable and if you explain that for safety reasons both EMS and the hospital have a no-gun policy and aren't a dick about it, I would imagine they would be pretty understanding. Now if you are dealing with someone from the Limbaugh crowd, just tell them that Obama wants them to bring their gun in the ambulance and the hospital and they will gladly give it up.

Edited July 23, 2013 by ERDoc

[mikeymedic1984]

You answered your own question. "Sir/Madam, we can transport your weapon, but it is not allowed in the hospital, and will be taken from you by security upon your arrival. Since you may not have access to it at the hospital, I think it is best to : ____________________________________" . These people are not problematic for EMS, its the other 90% that have a weapon in thier pocket you do not know about.

[HarryM]

Sounds tricky! No way that would happen here as our cops don't even carry guns! But am really impressed at Croakers' summary!

[Richard B the EMT]

As we've noted so many times, I'm in NYC, and have NYPD usually close by to secure a weapon. I could only suggest putting a holstered weapon into the locking compartment, and await the LEOs at hospital to secure the weapon for the patient, although I admit that might not be practical, either.

[Just Plain Ruff]

As Illinois finally joins all the other states in enacting conceal carry laws....was wondering about the possible issues we might encounter here in the land of Lincoln. It's my understanding that hospitals will still be off limits for weapons, so what are we to do if the patient has a weapon. Note this would be in reference to a law abiding citizen who is not a threat.

And as soon as illinois allowed conceal carry, chicago moved to disallow it, adding about 150 new guns to the list of prohibited guns. And the shootings in chicago from those guns that are illegal goes on. So much for the current laws.