MEDICS RUSHING IN BEFORE SCENE SECURE

[island emt]

I don't get paid enough to become a possible target when they are or may be an active shooter present.

Thats what the law enforcement teams are for.

Will say I've had rounds hitting the wall over my head on a scene that had 4 police officers present in the apt. They had cleared the apt and were as surprised as we were when homey came out of the closet with a MAC 10 and sprayed the hallway. Luckily we dove to the floor and the gun barrel rose to the ceiling..

God I hated the drug wars of the 80's in Holyoke.

[VOODOO MEDIC]

Wow wonder why my post didnt show... oh well hope everyone is having a great day

[uglyEMT]

Recently we had a drill with an active shooter in a school. First time around we did the stand-by wait for the all clear before entering. After action showed multiple patients bled out or would otherwise survived if medical attention had come sooner. We reran the drill, this time with a handful of willing EMTs to follow the sweeping PD/ SWAT team (2 officers with each "team" of EMTs). After action showed that the patients that needed the critical care survived due to more rapid triage and treatment.

I do think in the large scale buildings or events this works I wouldn't suggest it for private dwellings. Even if the EMS agency can't afford the ballistic armor themselves I don't see why a few pieces can't come directly from the local PD. As far as tactical training, would be great if it was widespread I can think of many times just the situational awareness training alone would help folks. But in the big picture I don't see it outside of CEUs. For the above drill it was more of the officers giving us a quick briefing and going in. Basically it was stay behind us, stay close, stay quiet, do what you have to do as quickly as possible, get out.

One thing I would like to add is maybe talk with folks that deal with these things more often. Israel comes to mind. Start a dialogue with agencies that have already dealt with and implemented steps and ways of doing this correctly.

[scubanurse]

Sounds like an awesome drill to participate in!!

[Chief1C]

Prolly nawt.

Put it in terms of people who normally get shot at while treating the ill and injured. War. People, bad people, don't play by the rules. If they're killing people, they're not going to care if they kill you. They probably don't have a soft spot for an EMT or Medic. Like say, a combat medic. You go running in, looking like someone there to help, you can save a half dozen or more lives... And this asshole with a gun is thinking, dude.. I just shot them... now you're gonna undo my doings? Fuck that shit. He'll pop your ass.. and then you die.. and the half dozen people die, anyway.

Or... you could just wait for someone to pop his ass... then go in a salvage what you can.

[craig]

the bad guy is going to have a shot at anyone he sees

even more so if it is some one in uniform.....don't matter what uniform......

even worse if the attending paramedic is wearing a POLICE ballistic vest

wouldn't the BIG WORD of POLICE written in BRIGHT WHITE letters be sort of a TARGET

the reason we get told to stay outside and wait for the scene to be cleared is a damn good one

NO ONE can get saved if the attending paramedic cops one...........

the cops are the ones that are paid to do the risky stuff.......it is a fact of life in a terrible situation like this people DIE....not good if more people are put at risk than need to be.....

[ERDoc]

I don't want to sound like one of those guys that says, "This is the way we've always done it, so why change it?" but there are somethings that just make sense. I'm a firm believer that you cannot help anyone if you are a victim. Now, if departments want to specially train medics to go into situations like this and properly outfit them, then I am all for it. Maybe the police could train their officers in tactical medicine who could enter the scene properly armed and armored. They could provide rapid assessment/care and then extricate the pt to the "standard" EMS waiting in a safe area.

[yakc130]

Every situation will be different, and that's how they need to be evaluated. You have to look at the risks vs. benefits each time. A school will be different from a theater which will be different from a big grocery store which will be different from a convenient store or truck stop.

Quality information will be the biggest factor in deciding if it will be a go/no go situation.

[craig]

and the fact there will be a person or PERSONS in any one of the situations you mentioned...single room establishments or multi roomed ones

the fact still remains there is some in there with a gun that is bent on killing or injuring people....so again what good is an ambo that has been shot to the other people that also have had this fate..........

[HellsBells]

I agree with ERDoc that if this is to work, certain Medics need to be properly trained. We have Tactical Paramedics in the city I work in who are trained, and have the proper vests/armor for this scenario, although there are usually a max of 4 on duty at any given time.